Regarding god saving the kittens-

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ekÆsine said:
milk, cheese, and ice cream doesn't require killing cows or goats to produce them.

Correction. Dairy cows are pregnant year round, then their young are taken from them at birth (causing the mother to go into shock... natural occurance in mammals..)

The dairy cows young are what support the veal industry. The are stuck into crates and not allowed to move.

as for chicken eggs, if they are still unhatched and in the early stages of growth I don't think that as killing.

That again, the chickens have their beaks and sometimes their legs cut off so they don't attack the other 10 chickens that are in their in their tiny cage.

"Free range" chickens do not make it any better, because there are no government regulated rules to it.
 
Nubius said:
Another complete BS theory. Hmmm, there's already 6+ billion people on the earth....as it is there are already species of animals that's overpopulated.....if humans ate nothing but meat, this place would be even more crowded.
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There wouldn't be as many animals. Right now animals are bred in a regular fashion to be slaughtered. If we stop breeding the animals, they would reproduce in natural numbers.
 
Well I'm not getting into it about the veganism thing. I think god put animals here for our use, end of story, we abuse it we screw ourselves. I am not an atheist and I believe we humans are the only things that "feel" and have a soul. So, that said, I think that if you were to judge it- animals in captivity being used for food are in horrendous conditions, they are caged in very tight places and have no "animal life" if you wanna call it that. They are also treated like sh!t, do you know what they feed those animals? (ground up other animals thats what, and often the same animal). But I'm a big picture guy and in the big score of things, Bush potentially deciding to go to war with Iran is a much bigger deal, and something like this is really of no concern or any more changable than PEOPLE DYING! I dont understand how people can go on such missions and disregard other ones that save actual people.

However I dont think you can pick and choose what animals have feelings and which ones dont (if you believe that). So if you are upset at the prospect of me committing such an act then you sure as hell better be upset about chickens in cages, zoos, and anyone with a lizard in a tank. All those animals are being deprived of a life, and their living is probly worse than death. BUTTTT I do NOT believe that animals have feelings and that they are here for MY and YOUR use. Not necessarily to so claimed "TOrture" them, but if am so morally low then thats my problem is it not? IF you accept that animals have no feelings, (which I think you must if you eat meat, unless you just roll with "it sucks to be THOSE animals that I eat") then the ONLY thing in question is my morality!!!!

And if you all think that I'm just some hick that loves torturing animals, know that I work for a Disabilities camp for 5 summers now. I'm not askin for a medal or a cookie, but my boss at this camp hunts, I hunt, and so do many people on staff. It is partly for meat yes but it is SPORTING, now if I get enjoyment out of flingin cats whats the difference??? Because its domestic?? So a wild animal is worth less??

I dont think with a statement like I made that I need to tell You I was joking!!! MY GOD! Who would honestly do such a thing and tell everyone about it??? I thought with my calculations thing that I conveyed the message that I was joking. Before you reply give it a second of thought and read through it again please. If I was serious I would know that everyone would hate me, So I'm sure as hell not gonna tell you about it. I refuse to admit any wrongdoing or lack of conveying it properly, It was mildly blunt yes but for F*ck sake use some common sense.
 
I wasn't directing my statments to your orignal post. I knew it was a joke.

I also believe in God. But religion has nothing to do with it. (but there is also no record of Jesus ever eating meat.)

If we use our resources to growing plants and wheat rather than towards livestock we could feed many more people in the countries that need it.
 
TheRecluse said:
Face it. Veganism (done properly) IS healthier, there is no denying that.

That might be true, but are you aware about the mount of screwing around that you need to do in order to get your daily iron in take.

I hope you like mushrooms and spinage.

My house mate when vego for about a month or 2 (as he was pussywhipped by is vego GF at the time). His idea of vegitarian was pasta salid for lunch and dinner.

Combine that with his unactive life style.

He put on more weight in the end.
 
Ok so its a lifestyle choice, and its your choice, thats fine. If I wanted to get a lot healthier Id start with goin to the gym:D. I did hear a figure about if we used all of that grazing land etc that we coudl feed the whole world, but at the same time we have surplus crops as is, (not sure if its still true) but farmers used to get paid to not plant in some of their land to control prices. We just are too freckin greedy to commit to save anyone but ourselves. If you were a rich millionaire exec or somethin, if you and some others could come up with $365,000 a year you could save one THOUSAND PEOPLE! Huge corporations could do that, and itd be great pr as well. But we're greedy capitalistic America.
 
Harper said:
That might be true, but are you aware about the amount of screwing around that you need to do in order to get your daily iron intake.

I hope you like mushrooms and spinach.

It is true, it takes some work to get a proper diet. If you can't get the right amount of nutrients you can take a multi-vitamin. It's not the same as the natural vitamins in food, but it is better than nothing.
 
Face it. Veganism (done properly) IS healthier, there is no denying that.
You think your way is healthier when it simply is not. Man was meant to eat meat, and guess what, animals still have a tendency to overpopulate themselves without the aid of us breeding them.

It is something your body has been accustomed too. I had a 300lb girl sit there and try to tell me her way of life is better and she was a vegan, obviously it didn't work for her.

Point remains, it IS NOT healthier, but at the same time I'm not saying that it's LESS healthier either.

The fact is that like I've said over and over, daily regimine, good exercise and sleep are the keys to health, not sticking by the innane laws of 'veganism'

Like I said, be whatever you want, just don't push your beliefs on me that are in no way accurate.

Why do we have teeth to cut and shred? Answer that, keep your trap shut, or take it up with god.

If we were meant to eat plants we would have molars all around.

Also plants DO feel, and you are just 'justifying' your actions like any 'meat eater' would.

There's been scientific studies about their 'feelings' and until you can talk to a plant and prove otherwise you are just wrong there because I doubt you are a professor of botany.

If I wanted to get a lot healthier Id start with goin to the gym
Yup...

Vegans, seem to think just by sitting there, eating their crappy soy bi-products that they are somehow healthier.

Another crappy argument. There wouldn't be as many animals. Right now animals are bred in a regular fashion to be slaughtered. If we stop breeding the animals, they would reproduce in natural numbers.
Well, besides complaining that your way is somehow magically 'healthier' you haven't made any sort of point yet.

you think animals don't overpopulate themselves even if we were to stop breeding them....JUST LIKE HUMANS MANAGE TO DO

The rat is a prime example of that, hell even deer at one point became extremely overpopulated in the states and we don't breed them to eat.

I agree that animals should be raised in an organic environment, with organic foods and killed humanely, and if you say 'theres no such thing as humane killing' I could gladly prove you wrong by inhumanely slowly torturing a cow until it died.

Here's another good one, how about you go back in time, tell the native americans that they shouldn't eat those buffalo.

They were known to have great health, strength, and stamina, to the point where they could wear a dear from running.

If you love plants so much, then go get your incisors and canine teeth removed and have them replaced with molars so you can be a true herbivore.

Oh but wait, you really can't because herbivors jaws move in a circular motion to grind the plant material.....another thing humans jaws don't possess.

So we got the fact that we have cutting teeth, the way our jaw moves is made for straight up and down movement for cutting, smashing, shredding, oh but somehow we were meant to eat plants.

EDIT:
Combine that with his unactive life style.

He put on more weight in the end.
Yup....as I said, it doesn't matter what the hell you eat, if you don't have a regular routine of eating solid meals with things like fruits and veggies on the side, combined with a dose of exercise and good sleep, it doesn't matter WHAT you eat because you WILL gain weight.

Your body stores whatever it gives you, it's not like plants just magically don't store fat in your body, because if you ate once a day on a vegan diet, you would basically make your body think "well damn, god knows when I'll get a meal again so I better store it"

If we use our resources to growing plants and wheat rather than towards livestock we could feed many more people in the countries that need it
Hate to break it to you, but we don't need more people living. Called the cycle of life, as bad as it is to think about it, people need to die. The birth rate completely destroys the death rate and soon it'll be 1 million people to a city block, at which point the earth as a whole would soon be destroyed by the insane amount of humans polluting the place up.

To say 'oh we could feed the people over seas' is a completely unrealistic dream of someone who wants to use that as their arguement for a vegan regiment.

And as far as jesus eating meat, there might be no record of him eating meat, but there's no record of him NOT eating meat at the same time, meaning I think for the most part all you know of him eating is bread and wine...

Unless you've talked to good ole Jesus lately don't even try to use 'theres no record of him eating meat' as any sort of valid arguement.
 
TheRecluse - If you read http://www.chreese.com/veganism.php you'll see that if everyone lowers their meat consumption we could feed millions of people around the world.
Not to be an a$$...but...uh...if everyone lowered their ANYTHING consumption, we could feed millions of people around the world.

TheRecluse - Face it. Veganism (done properly) IS healthier, there is no denying that.
Healthier than what? Okay, so my Burger-King binges and the fact that I love anything with the words "stew", "greasy", or "spicy," in it, isn't that healthy...But there's no reason why I can't eat meat and vegetables and all the other food groups and still live a long, perfectly healthy life. I don't need to go on some extreme diet fling to stay alive or be healthy. (Let's not forget that being healthy also includes my sanity, and having to nit-pick my way through life with fruity diets...will likely drive me more crazy than I am already...)

TheRecluse - Every meat eater brings up the argument that killing plants is just as bad. But plants do not have a central nervous system therefor they do not feel.
I should probably bludgeon you for this...but I'm feeling nice today and I'm not in the mood for a huge rant and smackdown.

1. Just because something cannot feel, doesn't mean it's okay to hurt it.
2. Neither you nor I know exactly what it means to "feel."
3. The whole "killing plants is just as bad" argument is a flimsy rebuttle at best.

So let's try to look at this backwards a little...

If you're a vegan, are you:
A: Protesting against animal cruelty?
B: Protesting against killing animals?
C: Protesting against modern animal stockyard practices?
D: All of the above?


If you said A: The act of eating meat alone is not indicative of animal cruelty. You can kill and eat in humane ways. Most often, the slaughter of animals in farms is about as humane as can be. Big farms tend to have systems where the animals die instantly, painlessly. Small farms tend to kill more bluntly, and can actually be less humane. Then, when you consider how wolves and bears and such kill animals in the wild, we've got the killing process down to saintly.

However, we cannot honestly deny that no animal cruelty exists in farming. If you are a vegan because of this, then it is NOT the act of eating meat that you are protesting. It is the animal cruelty.

If you said B: Why are you against killing animals for food? Is it because you think we (as humans) are some kind of pure higher species and wish to deny what we are biologically (omnivores)?

The fact of the matter is that we ARE omnivores. If we were carnivors, we would have to eat meat to live, and killing animals for food would not only be our way of consumption, but vital to our existance. If we were herbavores, the killing of animals would be pointless (and then you might have a point). But we are omnivores. We have the ability to eat from both animal and vegetable, and we need what each side has. True, we can often find substitute in the vegetable/synthetic side, but does that mean we were never supposed to eat meat at all? No. This just means we have an alternative...which mind you, is there because the ability to survive on alternative "fuels" is a great evolutionary adaptation.

On the other hand, if you are against the killing of animals for food because of some religious belief, you run into another wall. (I'll grant that, for some religions where reincarnation is present, eating meat has a valid detrimental reason...) If animals are not supposed to be killed for meat, then God would not have given us canine teeth, the need for things that meat provides (protiens, iron) and God would not have created carnivors.

God has provided us with meats and vegetables, and does not present either as "God's preferred food." God simply asks that we take in moderation and with responsibility. At several points in the Bible it is pointed out that God and Jesus are against cruelty to animals...but I dare anyone to find where it says God and Jesus claimed the act of eating meat as "evil and forbidden." Trust me, it ain't there.

You're running on your own interpretation of religion...which is fine...but don't give God the credit for your own adjustments of the Bible.

If you chose C: The protest of inhumane mass-farm slaughterhouses is a just and moral protest. However, if you're protesting this, you're not protesting my choice to eat meat. Once again, you're protesting the cruelty, NOT the meat.

Instead of protesting my burger...protest the farms which perform such acts of cruelty and ignorance.

We can still have mass farms and eat our meat in a humane fashion. The need for change should drive those in support of change to go protest to the politicians, NOT me. I don't make the laws, and I don't have influence. I'm just a voter like you. If a law comes up on the block for me to vote on, I will do what's right. Again, don't protest to me, protest to the politicians and farmers.

If you chose D: Read the above...You got a lot of thinking to do.

So anyway, I'm going to bed...
And as a side note, you can study Darwin and believe in God too.

'gnight.
 
Well put Shoobie but as far as Darwin goes I was objecting the notion that I evolved from a primate.
 
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