Regarding god saving the kittens-

[Nubius]

Excellent Shoobie

I have yet to see a vegan who actually adresses the following issues:

The fact our jaw moves in a fashion to cut, shred, tear and grind, and not in a circular motion like cows for purely grinding plants.

The fact that we have incisors and canine teeth

The fact that the native americans ate plenty of meat and were some of the healthiest people on the planet.

You have no chance in this until you address the approximate 20 things that pretty much proves and identifies the human race as omnivores

I can tell you right now, I don't eat healthy, and it's not simply because I eat meat....it's because I eat maybe one time a day on some days and 4 times a day on others....that constant irregularity of eating screws with my body, the fact I'm sitting at this computer instead of running is unhealthy, but in no way is veganism 'healthier' than someone who chooses to eat meat.

Ever see that 'trading spouses' crap on Fox.....they switched a vegan mother with a lady from lousiana.....the lady from lousiana had a crocodile farm, ate frogs, crocodiles, what have ya...and of course the whole time that vegan lady is protesting that here way is healthier....but oh whats this? She lights up a cigerette and is drinking a beer...

Not only that she has some frog legs towards the end and tells her husband 'Well I figured a reptile isn't as bad as eating a pig or cow right?'

Oh yeah, and I believe in the bible god gave moses quail to eat when there was no feed.....hmm......go figure.....I guess he meant to give him a salad instead and messed up

You don't get all the nutrients you should and if it wasn't for the last 50 years of medicine you would be LESS healthier, except now you have so many freakin multivitamins and suppliments.

 

[Emily]

First of all, one more personal attack and I'm closing this thread. After this post I'm going to go back and edit out all the name-calling and personal attacks.

Anyway, back on topic, I don't usually eat meat because I don't like the taste or texture, so I'm not sure I'd ever be a vegan. Still, I don't think the "we're built to eat meat" argument works. Our omnivorous design could very well be vestigial. We were designed to do strenuous labor all day to get our food, but not many of us are hunting all day for our dinner anymore, are we? We've replaced that system with something more convenient... Safeway. The point is, just because we were designed to eat meat doesn't mean we still should when we can eat tofu instead and spare the animal cruelty. I'm not saying that no one should eat meat, I'm just saying that "My teeth are good for eating meat" isn't a solid argument.

My main point is this and simply this:

'Having a routine eating schedule, exercise, and good sleep' will keep you healthy

You don't see me trying to tell others that my way of life is better, as that's just ridiculous and simple minded.

Oh the irony... Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you just told me that this way of life - routine eating schedule, exercise, and good sleep - is better?

 

[TheRecluse]

I wasn't trying to force my ways on anyone. But I am here to back what I say when someone questions it.

Just because we were designed to eat meat, or because we have been eating meat all through history doesn't meat we have to continue it indefinitely...

As I quoted before...

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. "~Albert Einstein

"I do feel that spiritual progress does demand at some stage that we
should cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of our
bodily wants." -Gandhi

"If man wants freedom why keep birds and animals in cages? Truly man
is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the
death of others. We are burial places! I have since an early age abjured
the use of meat." -Leonardo-da-Vinci

"Flesh eating is simply immoral, as it involves the performance of an
act which is contrary to moral feeling: killing. By killing, man
suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity,
that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself and by
violating his own feelings becomes cruel." "As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields." -Leo Tolstoy

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being" -Abraham Lincoln

Genesis 1:29 "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." -God

"In that day the wolf and the lamb will lie down together, and the leopard and goats will be at peace. Calves and fat cattle will be safe among lions, and the little child shall lead them all. The cows will graze among bears; cubs and calves will lie down together, and lions will eat grass like the cows. . . Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so shall the earth be full of the knowledge of the Lord." -Isaiah 11:6-10

Do you call the likes of Ben Franklin, Plato, Socrates, Albert Einstein, Albert Schweitzer, Leo Tolstoy, Leonardo Da Vinci, H.G. Wells, Pythagoras, Gandhi, Thomas Edison, Sir Isaac Newton, and many many others (all vegan/vegetarian)... close minded?

 

[Nubius]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you just told me that this way of life - routine eating schedule, exercise, and good sleep - is better?

Well since you asked me to correct you, I will....I in no way said it was 'better' I simply said that is the key to being healthy and anyone who studies human health would agree be it that you eat meat, slugs, rocks, plants, whatever, so don't try and manipulate my words into something I didn't say as it just won't fly.

I'm just saying that "My teeth are good for eating meat" isn't a solid argument.

And neither is 'being vegan is healthier', no one ever said that because our teeth are good for eating meat, that you MUST use it, it's merely pointing out the fact that we were made to eat meat, and based on that, it's not wrong or unhealthy to eat it....otherwise we would have never been given these kind of teeth in the first place, whether you think so or not...again I say, take that up with god.

The advancements of man is what makes us no longer hunt all day like we did in the days of yore, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't eat meat, and nowhere did I say "Having these teeth means you HAVE to eat meat" I simply said that's what they are there for whether you choose to use them or not. The simple fact is they are there for eating meat, if we weren't meant to eat meat in any fashion they wouldn't be there.

As for our omniverous design being 'vestigial' on what grounds would you base that upon? I would say that for something like wisdom teeth or the appendix, but how exactly do you perceive that to be true being that for the most part the design of teeth have been consistant for thousands of years.

Creating a gathering of food such as "Safeway" is in no way the same as then justifying 'oh well, we dont hunt anymore because food is in the store, so lets stop eating meat now' thats just ridiculous. You don't HAVE to use your teeth to eat meat, the point is, they are made to cut through meat and there is nothing vestigial about that design at all, not to also mention the fact like I've said about 3 times now, that the way our jaw moves indicates a fashion in which is used to eat meat.

and as I said before:

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet - That is BS, I don't care if it's albert enstein, plato, socrates, lincoln, it doesn't matter because guess what, they are human which being human entails error and making mistakes. He's trying to say unless we go vegetarian diet, we won't be healthy which is completely untrue.

Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food."

And?....no where does that imply that we should eat ONLY those plants, it's simply a reference to his creations, one of many viable sources of sustinance.

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being"

Animal rights, which falls into the animal cruelty category, again not implying that eating meat is a bad thing.

"If man wants freedom why keep birds and animals in cages? Truly man
is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the
death of others. We are burial places! I have since an early age abjured
the use of meat."

Coming from a time where they'd cut the head off the animal infront of you while you're shopping, I can see his point then...but as it stands, animals aren't brutally killed like that so a proclimation of a man from few hundred years back doesn't quite hold to todays standards. Just like enstein probably didn't foresee a nuclear weapon used to kill thousands of people by splitting the atom.

"Flesh eating is simply immoral, as it involves the performance of an
act which is contrary to moral feeling: killing. By killing, man
suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity,
that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself and by
violating his own feelings becomes cruel." "As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields."

Although it's not at all practiced today, people would offer a prayer to the animal that would be killed for food. The closest that'd be given by todays standards is a simple prayer to god that basically says "Thank you for the bountiful food on our plate"

"In that day the wolf and the lamb will lie down together, and the leopard and goats will be at peace. Calves and fat cattle will be safe among lions, and the little child shall lead them all. The cows will graze among bears; cubs and calves will lie down together, and lions will eat grass like the cows. . . Nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for as the waters fill the sea, so shall the earth be full of the knowledge of the Lord."

Well that's very pretty and all, but unfortunately man wrote the bible, which as we've discussed, man = susceptible to fallible thoughts and beliefs. Also being that there's been a couple variations of the bible, that even makes it worse when trying to keep a story straight.

I'm not even going to get onto the subject of the bible though, I believe in god, but I have my own relationship with him. I talk and hopefully he listens...the bible is only a tool of man to give people hope, nothing more.

Although I will give you the fact that that, if could be in anyone see as remotely true, would be a good point, but unless god himself appears infront of me and tells me this, the point is still the same, man wrote it, man changed it, man translated it, man more than likely screwed up any original message that may have been sent from god, IF that were to happen.

"I do feel that spiritual progress does demand at some stage that we
should cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of our
bodily wants."

Ahh good ole Ghandi.....well I might take it into consideration if it wasn't for the fact that most of his beliefs are quite far off from most people unless you are infact a follower of buddhist beliefs or something close to that nature. His whole life style is about peace, but at the same time, he can ignore most of his bodily wants, such as sex.....are we to stop that too?

So instead of quoting people who have their own beliefs, why don't you back up the things both I and shoobie have pointed out, the fact our entire jaw and method of eating is that of an omnivore, and this goes to say without thinking that for whatever reason that is just a tool for long ago, but now we got safeway, so that means we just gotta eat plant, and soon we'll just magically evolve into plant eaters with circular moving jaws and molars all around.

You may not think you're pushing your beliefs but the simple act of saying

"Being vegan is healthier"

IS pushing your beliefs. Like Shoobie said, it may be healthier than a burger king binge, but other than that, what are you comparing it too?

Keeping under 30 grams of fat, eating things like grilled chicken not fried, exercise, sleep, good attitude....keeping even a couple of those simple rules in mind will help to aid you in keeping your body healthier than just sitting around doing nothing, eating fried chicken and bacon all day, midnight snacks etc...etc... but that's a given.

Now...back to the point...it's healthier than what? Than simply eating meat? Because I don't eat JUST meat, I eat vegetables, fruits, bread, AND meats.

Pick two health fanatics...one vegan and one who eats meat, but beyond that both practice a good regemine of food, exercise and sleep and lets see if you could pick out which one is healthier.

I guarantee you if I sat down at a resteraunt with someone whom I didn't know was vegan and ordered a hamburger they would start preaching to me how their life style is better and why I shouldn't eat meat....where as on the opposite side of that I would simply say 'Oh you're vegan? Didn't know that, crazy' and it'd be done with that.

But why we are focusing on purely vegans, when that's more sounding like a vegetarian is beyond me.

You guys are protesting eating meat...that's a vegetarian, if you're vegan then you need to explain why you feel drinking milk, or eating cheese is somehow a crime against nature.

 

[Emily]

Well since you asked me to correct you, I will....I in no way said it was 'better' I simply said that is the key to being healthy and anyone who studies human health would agree be it that you eat meat, slugs, rocks, plants, whatever, so don't try and manipulate my words into something I didn't say as it just won't fly.

No one ever explicitly said in this thread that veganism is "better", they just said it was healthier, and that's exactly what you said about routine eating schedule, regular exercise, and good sleep.

And neither is 'being vegan is healthier', no one ever said that because our teeth are good for eating meat, that you MUST use it, it's merely pointing out the fact that we were made to eat meat, and based on that, it's not wrong or unhealthy to eat it....otherwise we would have never been given these kind of teeth in the first place, whether you think so or not...again I say, take that up with god.

It might not be wrong or unhealthy, but that doesn't mean it's necessary.

The advancements of man is what makes us no longer hunt all day like we did in the days of yore, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't eat meat, and nowhere did I say "Having these teeth means you HAVE to eat meat" I simply said that's what they are there for whether you choose to use them or not. The simple fact is they are there for eating meat, if we weren't meant to eat meat in any fashion they wouldn't be there.

My point with the Safeway wasn't connected in that way to eating meat. It was an analogy. We've replaced hunting all day with a better way of getting our food, so that means that's it's viable to replace meat with an better food. (Like tofu or black beans or something that doesn't require animal cruelty.)

As for our omniverous design being 'vestigial' on what grounds would you base that upon? I would say that for something like wisdom teeth or the appendix, but how exactly do you perceive that to be true being that for the most part the design of teeth have been consistant for thousands of years.

I would base that upon the fact that a vestigial design, by definition, is one that is no longer an evolutionary advantage. Today people can survive equally well with or without meat, and therefore with or without the designs of their mouths that favor eating meat, and reproduce equally well too. In fact, if the design of our mouths is still an evolutionary advantage, then vegetarians and vegans would be dying off. On the contrary, in the 1984-1986 somewhere between 2 and 3% of the population was a vegetarian; in 1998, 3% were vegans and 7% were vegetarians.

Creating a gathering of food such as "Safeway" is in no way the same as then justifying 'oh well, we dont hunt anymore because food is in the store, so lets stop eating meat now' thats just ridiculous. You don't HAVE to use your teeth to eat meat, the point is, they are made to cut through meat and there is nothing vestigial about that design at all, not to also mention the fact like I've said about 3 times now, that the way our jaw moves indicates a fashion in which is used to eat meat.

Again, it was an analogy. My point was that if we have a better option than meat, we should use that better option even if we are still designed to eat meat. And yes, we did used to eat meat because at one time eating meat, and being able to eat meat, was an evolutionary advantage. If we hadn't eaten meat in the past, we wouldn't even be able to digest it now. But just because we used to eat meat and we still are built to eat meat doesn't mean we still have to. The analogy was that we are still built to hunt for our food all day but now we have a better option, so we don't still hunt for it.

You guys are protesting eating meat...that's a vegetarian, if you're vegan then you need to explain why you feel drinking milk, or eating cheese is somehow a crime against nature.

I'm not protesting eating meat at all, I'm just protesting that your argument isn't solid. And I don't feel that drinking milk or eating cheese is a crime against nature, and I never said I felt that.

 

[hygor]

what are you peeps on about... i always hunt for my food in safeway... i got a cashier in the back with a spear last week, and then i used a blow pipe to snare some kraft cheese slices

 

[TheRecluse]

man = susceptible to fallible thoughts and beliefs.

That doesn't back your arguments very well either.



I already stated why dairy products do involve animal cruelty...

Ever see that 'trading spouses' crap on Fox.....they switched a vegan mother with a lady from lousiana.....the lady from lousiana had a crocodile farm, ate frogs, crocodiles, what have ya...and of course the whole time that vegan lady is protesting that here way is healthier....but oh whats this? She lights up a cigerette and is drinking a beer...

One person does not represent an entire group.

I am also Straight Edge.

 

[GameGURU]

Ok, this has probably already been said but humans are capable of eating meat and vegetation at the same time (I ususally do at dinner). Honestly the way they kill the things that I eat is pretty raunchy and I dont really want to go into that in-depth (find out for yourself and you might get sick to your stomach). But at the same time I do eat meat and even though it bothers me sometimes its the way we were made, also those who choose to eath veggies only, we were built for that too so no one way is right or wrong.

As for hunting...I would never hunt anything although in MN one of my best friend's dad hunted deer and there was always a deer in their garage that smelled really bad, they would then procede to make vennasin (spelling) out of it. I never thought about how nasty it really was because that was they way they lived and it didnt bother me, however my family does not do that at all. No we do something far worse...we buy from the store something that we didnt have the guts to kill and had to pay someone to do the butchering for our benefit. Even though I would never hunt...I respect the people that hunt for themselves as it is far more humane than paying for someone to kill the food.

Also, as for the "well the animal is the animal and it has feelings" no duh, I think we are all capable of understanding this on any level or repsect for the animal. You need to look at this many other ways too, out here in Idaho people hunt for food AND to keep the population of deer down to a safe level for them and for the community. Why the community? Because last year a mountain lion was killed not far from my home that had killed a deer behind my house, the amount of mountain lion sightings last year made front cover news in Boise. Why where the mountain lions coming? Because of the amount of deer that came down from the mountains to get water from the river about 1 mile from my sub-division.

It's all just one viscious cycle...you cant look at it to the extreme either way, just look at it in the middle of both and it will make more sense.

 

[FoxyLoxy]

Thank You Guru, you are one of the only people who has ever said anything nice about hunting that doesnt hunt themselves. It may seem brutal to you, but you would be surprised how much meat hunters actually provide for themselves. And small farmers for that matter as well. God put animals on this earth. He put them here for our purposes, whether it be beasts of burden, companionship, or food.

(I was a little hasty in defending the "Torture" thing and just wanted to argue cause thats how I am). We should respect the animals and use them, Native Americans used the buffalo and almost every part of it to keep them surviving and they did very well. I will somewhat equate that to ourselves, we hunters have a good relationship with deer, their population needs to be controlled and in hunting we do so. (btw it is for the better of everyone as if we let them run rampant they would be in the suburbs soon enough and people would be smokin em left and right probably getting hurt so we serve a purpose).

Furthermore I would like to point out that if hunters do not take enough deer in the harvest then groups and DNR people are paid to go out and shoot deer just because there are too many, so we might as well get commercial and food use of them. If we hunters did not hunt it would become YOUR problem (people in the cities) not so much ours in the country. We have roughly a two week period and depending on the deer population (which is usually overpopulated btw) we are allowed to take one deer and in some peoples cases if you have more land, own business in country etc you can take more. We keep the deer in check, while they live a very good life in the wild like they are supposed to, they are given a fair chance to survive and most do for a good portion of life. We do not kill infant deer (veal), they are given a fair chance (cows getting killed while standin there and no instincts left because we breeded them out), and the deer have a decent life living in the wild (cows and other animals living in cages and with literally thousands of other cows in their own filth, (that is often fed to chickens if you didnt know). I know no one was bashing hunters but I decided to take this opportunity and inform people that we are not the bloodthirsty people with a desire to kill that we satiate by hunting.

We provide a service not only to other people but the hunting and fishing industry is enormously beneficial to the economy. With few ill side effects because populations are controlled, ie- the limit on fish is lowered depending on the population, we are not allowed to fish some types in some lakes to allow for restocking, only one deer a year and only so many permits issued. The point is that we are a well controlled beneficial group that should not be hated. Again not saying anyone here, just in general im sick of hearing about our brutal savagery and being equated to a pre-historic neanderthal with a walnut sized brain.

As for the vegan thing- we are equipped to eat meat, we are equipped to eat plants. We do not have to and I dont care if you do or dont. God put animals there for us to use however we needed them, like I said- Food, shelter, tools, beasts of burden, etc. I think god left it up to us to use or abuse them. I think we abuse them in many instances. I know some people who are not vegetarians persay but simply do not like the texture etc, (sounds like you are similar Emily). The part about all the animals being in peace- obviously that event whatever it was was not going to be happening for long or the animals were going to be fed in a mystical way, because you cannot not eat and live, and those lions sure as hell arent going to eat grass. They are not supposed to. I think that was more an analogy to us humans, we will stop warring with each other, race issues, etc. not so much the animals. And it did not mention people, god put us above animals, if he was against eating creatures would he have supplied the loaves and fish that were multiplied? I would think that Jesus at least was not a hypocrite and wouldnt make such a gesture if he were against it. (I too am merely defending myself and lifestyle). To not have to eat meat is a luxury, Sometimes in the old times when you were starving the only thing you had left was your cow, what were they supposed to do?

Addressing the quotes from various historically important people. I am not overly impressed, while they are all shed in a good light I'm sure that many of these were somewhat egotistical people as often happens to those who are more intelligent than the rest and know it. They like to seperate themselves from the common rabble and possibly set an example of sorts. Aristocracy would not do the same things that peasants did merely because they were considered lower, rich people today make sure that others know they are rich by driving fancier cars when a Honda will do. Its just the way of things, winners write the hirstory books and everyone wants to look good, how do we know how nice they were? People (especially similar to this) want to look good, so they do "sophisticated things" possibly such as not eating meat which they might consider low or something. Anyone can make this big wordy pretty saying and sound good, thats what half of philosophy is, it doent often solve anything, its smart people observing normal things and buttering them up, often trying to make something out of nothing. There were likely many other intelligent people out there who ate meat merily and didnt give it a second thought.

I am not attacking anyone but as you defending myself, being a vegan seems to me like a lot of work that I simlpy do not want to spend just on what I'm eating, I do not count calories, I get regular exercise, and am just fine. If you choose to be a vegan/vegetarian whatever that is your choice and I dont care, but I do not buy that people are not supposed to eat meat. Like I said we at this stage have the luxury of choosing, so we choose, do not condemn my choice (not saying you recluse have condemned it at all, (all the good stuff has been edited out ). I do not consider myself on lower moral ground for eating meat either, and do not appreciate anyone suggesting as much.

(I think mine is the longest!!! I win!! no quotes and few lines in between, not that it was a competition, just found the big posts amusing and figured I'd add my own long-winded version of makin a short story long).

 

[TheMajor]

Yeah right. Getting shot because of "overpopulation" does not sound like a decent life or a fair chance to me.