Kindle Fire HD

[Pezzy]

Hi all.

I recently got the Kindle Fire HD (not the HDX). I got the one with 16GB of storage.

Now something I didn't see at first in the product description (it's waaaaayyyy down near the bottom of the web page; kinda reminds me of "....read the fine print) is that the full 16GB is not available to the user; it says: 12.7GB available to user.

Well, that's 3.3GB of space being used.

I've contacted Amazon/ Kindle tech support on more than one occasion; let's suffice it to say that their tech support leaves something to be desired (if you get my drift).

What I basically gathered was that the Kindle's operating system (it uses Android, right?) and the various apps that are pre-installed on it take up this much of the storage space.

Then I noticed something else.

But before I get to that, let me say that I'm aware of the fact that the Kindle Fire HD has wireless capability, and that I can download books straight to the device. But, my preference is, I like to browse for a book online using my desktop computer, download it to my hard drive, and then, using the included USB cable, transfer it over to the Kindle device.

Well, what I noticed was, when using my computer to open the Kindle device's drive when connected by the USB cable, what I see for drive space is this:
11.7GB free of 12.7GB

If the Kindle I purchased is supposedly 16GB in size.....where the heck is it?

No I do realize that many manufacturers of various devices round their numbers when it comes to drive space. Hard drive manufacturers (Western Digital, Seagate, etc.) are notorious for doing this. To make calculations easier, they use the number 1,000.

As most of you probably know, there are 1,024 bytes in a kilobyte. So when you're going from Kilobytes all the way up to Gigabytes, that "24" at the end adds up when you multiply it that many times over.

But I'm not quite getting it with this Kindle device. Even if their "claimed" 16GB is not really a full 16 (if they use 1,000 instead of 1,024 in their calculations), these numbers are not adding up and making sense to me.

Let's say it really is a full 16GB like they claim: then why wouldn't the drive read something like "12.7GB free of 16GB"

Or, if it's true what they claim on their web page that "12.7GB available to user", then why the heck is mine reading as "11.7GB free of 12.7GB" when I plug the USB cable into my desktop computer? What's taking up a Gig of space?

I have not downloaded any 3rd party apps or games; I have no movies downloaded onto the Kindle. I have two books on it at the moment whose total amount in size of both books is about 2 to 3MB; that's "mega", not "giga".

Can anyone help me make sense of this? This hard drive/ storage space issue?

Thanks for any info and insight into this.
Pez

 

[carnageX]

Hi all.

I recently got the Kindle Fire HD (not the HDX). I got the one with 16GB of storage.

Now something I didn't see at first in the product description (it's waaaaayyyy down near the bottom of the web page; kinda reminds me of "....read the fine print) is that the full 16GB is not available to the user; it says: 12.7GB available to user.

Well, that's 3.3GB of space being used.

I've contacted Amazon/ Kindle tech support on more than one occasion; let's suffice it to say that their tech support leaves something to be desired (if you get my drift).

What I basically gathered was that the Kindle's operating system (it uses Android, right?) and the various apps that are pre-installed on it take up this much of the storage space.

Then I noticed something else.

But before I get to that, let me say that I'm aware of the fact that the Kindle Fire HD has wireless capability, and that I can download books straight to the device. But, my preference is, I like to browse for a book online using my desktop computer, download it to my hard drive, and then, using the included USB cable, transfer it over to the Kindle device.

Well, what I noticed was, when using my computer to open the Kindle device's drive when connected by the USB cable, what I see for drive space is this:
11.7GB free of 12.7GB

If the Kindle I purchased is supposedly 16GB in size.....where the heck is it?

No I do realize that many manufacturers of various devices round their numbers when it comes to drive space. Hard drive manufacturers (Western Digital, Seagate, etc.) are notorious for doing this. To make calculations easier, they use the number 1,000.

As most of you probably know, there are 1,024 bytes in a kilobyte. So when you're going from Kilobytes all the way up to Gigabytes, that "24" at the end adds up when you multiply it that many times over.

But I'm not quite getting it with this Kindle device. Even if their "claimed" 16GB is not really a full 16 (if they use 1,000 instead of 1,024 in their calculations), these numbers are not adding up and making sense to me.

Let's say it really is a full 16GB like they claim: then why wouldn't the drive read something like "12.7GB free of 16GB"

Or, if it's true what they claim on their web page that "12.7GB available to user", then why the heck is mine reading as "11.7GB free of 12.7GB" when I plug the USB cable into my desktop computer? What's taking up a Gig of space?

I have not downloaded any 3rd party apps or games; I have no movies downloaded onto the Kindle. I have two books on it at the moment whose total amount in size of both books is about 2 to 3MB; that's "mega", not "giga".

Can anyone help me make sense of this? This hard drive/ storage space issue?

Thanks for any info and insight into this.
Pez

Android partitions several different things on the device. It has a /boot/, /recovery/, /data/, /cache/, /dalvik/, /system/, and then /sdcard/ (either internal or external - depends on the device...usually it's internal memory and /ext_sdcard/ is the external if your device supports an exernal).

Android reserves those partitions (boot, recovery, cache, dalvik, etc.) for necessary system functions. Then take into account that formatting a drive will take a way usable space (because like you already know, its 1024kb in a gigabyte, not 1000kb like manufacturers advertise).

And you usually can't remove the apps that came on the device because they're system apps and are not removable on the stock ROM (most likely where that 1GB+ of space has gone), unless you root your device and put a custom recovery/ROM on there.

Putting a custom ROM can usually get your more usable space, because people make some ROMs to conserve space and only put apps/customizations that are necessary.

 

[Pezzy]

Hi carnageX; thanks for your thorough reply.

So, when you say that Android partitions certain things on the device, does this mean that this section of the hard drive that they do it to doesn't even show up when you look at the hard drive? Meaning: like I "looked" at the Kindle's hard drive when I connected it to my desktop computer via a USB cable? Does Android's partitioning remove a section of the hard drive from sight?

I guess in a rigid way of thinking, if the device supposedly has 16GB of storage space, then I would expect to see a number near 16GB (whether they calculate using the "real" number of 1,024, or, 1,000). But I don't "see" that. Instead of seeing something like "12.7GB free of 16GB", I get "11.7GB free of 12.7GB".

This is my first tablet device, and I guess it's considered a proprietary item, correct? Everything is pre-installed on it, like the OS and various apps. I've been used to using desktops and laptops for years; I custom build my own systems.

I think at one point I had asked a Kindle tech support rep if I could remove or uninstall certain apps from the device if I wasn't ever going to use them, to free up some space on the drive. Their reaction was pretty strong, like "No no no!!....you don't want to do that!!" Like I would render the device inoperable if I did that.

And yes, I had heard of "rooting" the device; I had done a little searching on the 'Net. But I think I'll stay away from that; sounds like if you don't do things juuuust right, then you can have the device become un-bootable. That would suck

But that 16GB thing still isn't clear to me like I mentioned above. But maybe it's because like you mentioned, that Android partitions certain things on the device. But does that make it totally un-viewable? Taken from sight?

Pez

 

[carnageX]

Hi carnageX; thanks for your thorough reply.

So, when you say that Android partitions certain things on the device, does this mean that this section of the hard drive that they do it to doesn't even show up when you look at the hard drive? Meaning: like I "looked" at the Kindle's hard drive when I connected it to my desktop computer via a USB cable? Does Android's partitioning remove a section of the hard drive from sight?

I guess in a rigid way of thinking, if the device supposedly has 16GB of storage space, then I would expect to see a number near 16GB (whether they calculate using the "real" number of 1,024, or, 1,000). But I don't "see" that. Instead of seeing something like "12.7GB free of 16GB", I get "11.7GB free of 12.7GB".

You won't be able to see them because the the way the device interacts with your PC, as well as the format the flash chip is in.

I'm guessing it pops up as a "Media Device" when you plug it into your computer, or does it pop up as a Removable Disk under 'Computer' on your system?

Android is based on linux, and linux runs on the EXT file system (specifically EXT3 for older Android devices or EXT4 for newer... most likely EXT4). Most newer devices operate as an MTP Media Device so you can browse the /sdcard and /ext-sdcard areas of the file system. If it shows up as a removable drive, then they partitioned it as formatted it as something like Fat32 so that it could be read by Windows.

So they're not "hidden" per se, but they're not visible to protect the OS / device.

This is my first tablet device, and I guess it's considered a proprietary item, correct? Everything is pre-installed on it, like the OS and various apps. I've been used to using desktops and laptops for years; I custom build my own systems.

Yes and no... Android is Open Source, so anybody can go and edit/build/etc the OS's code. This is why people make can custom ROMs for Android devices. THe way the Kindle works though I believe (I don't own a Kindle... I own a Nexus 7 which just runs straight Android), is they have their own custom version of Android that has its own security features and layout and such, making it more of a "proprietary" system.

Android has system apps and user apps. System apps (they reside in /system/app) cannot be modified / uninstalled by users unless you have root access to your device. So I'm sure that any apps that Amazon put on there that they felt "necessary" (using this term very loosely), are in /system/app rather than /data/app (the user app space). User apps can be uninstalled by the normal user, and they are usually what you download yourself. Some apps that are pre-installed on devices are considered optional, User apps.

I think at one point I had asked a Kindle tech support rep if I could remove or uninstall certain apps from the device if I wasn't ever going to use them, to free up some space on the drive. Their reaction was pretty strong, like "No no no!!....you don't want to do that!!" Like I would render the device inoperable if I did that.

Going back to my previous paragraph... depends on if they're system or user apps. Some system apps rely on each other for the device to function, and if you were to remove them, the system can become unstable and give errors - but again, this is all ENTIRELY dependent on the app itself and how it interacts with other areas of the system.

And yes, I had heard of "rooting" the device; I had done a little searching on the 'Net. But I think I'll stay away from that; sounds like if you don't do things juuuust right, then you can have the device become un-bootable. That would suck

It's very simple and can be hard to actually hard brick your device if you do enough research / reading. I've soft-bricked my Nexus 7 several times (made it not boot), but was able to get it back up and running within a short amount of time. IMO, if you're this worried about a little bit of space, then put a custom recovery on your device, and get a custom ROM (such as CyanogenMod, AOKP, PAC-Man, etc... just look on XDA's forum for your device to see what kind of ROMs there are for your Kindle). Like I said, as long as you do research before actually doing anything.... it's pretty easy to do (usually). Most of the time people make toolkits to do just about everything for you even.

But that 16GB thing still isn't clear to me like I mentioned above. But maybe it's because like you mentioned, that Android partitions certain things on the device. But does that make it totally un-viewable? Taken from sight?

Pez

I think I kind of answered this in my first paragraph. And, like I said, if you're this worried about that little of space.... then research putting a custom ROM on your device.

 

[Pezzy]

Hi again.

Yes, you are correct: When I plug the Kindle Fire HD into my computer via the USB cable, it shows up as a "Multimedia Device" in the Control Panel's Devices & Printers (or, if I just open My Computer, it's listed under Portable Devices and just says "Kindle").

I also used an older Kindle, the Kindle Touch. When I would connect that to my computer, that would show up as a Removable Device/ Disk (down in the system tray/ task bar; I could right-click on it and choose to "Safely Remove Device").

But I see that, like you say, the Fire HD shows up as a Multimedia Device, and after I transfer a file to it (say....a book), I can just unplug it from the computer without having to "Safely Remove Device"

I was browsing through the Fire HD's folders while it was plugged into my computer, and I saw a name you mentioned, an "sdcard" folder.

So maybe like you say, things aren't necessarily hidden, just not visible to protect the OS of the device.

As far as the amount of storage space that I'm concerned about......

I know it's not a huge amount of space; it's just a pet peeve of mine.

I thought of something: Even for those not tech-savvy, they've probably noticed this iterative pattern: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.......

These are patterns many of us are used to seeing in, say, RAM amounts; or hard drive space

carnageX: You seem to have a knowledge base that's beyond mine, so, let me ask you this: Do manufacturers have to follow that iterative pattern like I listed above when designating their storage space on a device? I'm thinking they don't.

In my computer, I have a Samsung Solid State Drive; it's sold as a 250GB. 250, not 256 (if it were to have followed that iterative pattern: 64, 128, 256, 512.....). So I'm thinking, if Samsung can choose to put out a drive that's 250, then how about Amazon Kindle......

Then why couldn't Amazon/ Kindle design their device in such a way that after they've installed the OS and any "needed" apps for the device to function, then the left over storage space would in-fact be 16GB; you know, something around 19GB, then it would come down to about 16GB after the OS, apps, etc.

I suppose that's a rhetorical question, and I don't expect you to have the answer. I'm just thinking out loud and putting it out there.

If I get an HDD or an SSD, depending on what type of formatting I do or what OS is installed.....well, different amounts of space will be taken up on the drive. But with these devices/ tablets like the Fire HD that Amazon puts out, they could probably design it and tailor it however they like, including drive storage space. They could probably make it so that 16GB really is available to the user

Pez

 

[carnageX]

I thought of something: Even for those not tech-savvy, they've probably noticed this iterative pattern: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.......

These are patterns many of us are used to seeing in, say, RAM amounts; or hard drive space

carnageX: You seem to have a knowledge base that's beyond mine, so, let me ask you this: Do manufacturers have to follow that iterative pattern like I listed above when designating their storage space on a device? I'm thinking they don't.

In my computer, I have a Samsung Solid State Drive; it's sold as a 250GB. 250, not 256 (if it were to have followed that iterative pattern: 64, 128, 256, 512.....). So I'm thinking, if Samsung can choose to put out a drive that's 250, then how about Amazon Kindle......

Simply put, it's cheaper to follow the power of 2 formula. 2^x, where x = w/e power you're going to to get the size they need. Doing a non-power of 2 on a flash chip will be more expensive to develop (which is why the 250GB SSD will be expensive).

 

[Joe C]

I read somewhere that the drives that do not show the 2 formula, really are.
An example is the Samsung 250 gb drive, the 250 gb drive is really a 256 gb drive, there's 6 gb that's reserved for over-provisioning