not me...

[pjam76]

stats

Your stats are created because Computer Science and other engineering degrees are being avoided. Kids just aren't going into that career path anymore.

What happened to half those 6 month computer schools. Out of business.

Why are students not going into computer science, cause it's not like it once was.

Nurses are the ones getting cars and signing bonuses now, not Computer Science graduates.

It's a fact of life.

If my nephew in a few years wants to get into computer science, good for him.. but in all honesty I would not recommend Software Engineering as a carreer.

Go more into Information Security because identity theft and fraud are at the top of everybodies list now.

Most people are Avg. And Avg kid with avg grades and a degree in computer science might get a job, he might not. The reality is, he probably will get a job he doesn't like and then when it's time for him to advance or move up, he'll be cut because he'd want too much money.

Hey people who want to go into software engineering that's great. But it is not like it was during the Dot COm BOom and the Y2K panic years.

About your stats though... Does it say how many of those future jobs and current jobs are being held by H1B Visa holders?

Most likely it does not.

Go work on many IT jobs and see that half of the workforce are those who can barely speak english. It's just the way it is. If the do a great job, it's not a problem. But many times, the problem is for US workers, they are judged no on their IT work but their communication skills. Yet, half the workforce being hired can't speak english. Go figure why people are heading to other fields.

 

[pjam76]

So what does this mean for Bay Area job seekers? Certainly things aren't back to where they were in 1998, and outsourcing is still a major fact of life. At the same time, !however, the job prospects for software developers and engineers are better now than they have been in at least five years. Oracle is currently looking to hire several software developers and product managers in its Redwood Shores headquarters, and 25 miles up the road the San Francisco office of archrival Microsoft is also hiring for a variety of technical positions. And while hiring levels aren't where they were in the late 1990s, the employment landscape is far better than it was in 2000-01.

I really don't know what your looking at but the fact is the late 80s and the 1990s was an IT boom for computer people.


Computer Science became a career and not something only the "GEEKS" do. Computers became mainstream.

The web became popular for some people but most was static and businesses weren't all that interested.

Now everybody and their brother are on myspace.

The Computer Industry boom made "GEEK" into "whats cool."

Look at IPODS, cell phones, satellite tv and radio, dvrs, dvds, digital cameras, digital video, video editing, nano technology.

the 1990s was a boom that is one of those once in a lifetime things. Many people became Millionaires by working in IT.

That's why it was such a wham bam I want to work in IT for many people.

It is not like that and probably never will be again. It's a fact of life that you must deal with.

To deny that fact is plain stupid.

Like I said, you claiming that 2006 is better for IT then the 1990s shows you are either not in IT or just started in IT.

 

[pjam76]

and finally

Your link goes to a college site.

Common sense will say that a COLLEGE will say that it's not as bad as you think.....

COLLEGES are in business to make money. Reports that claim the job market isn't great means kids will not major in something. It means maybe they'll go to some other college.

It's about money.

Don't give me a link to a college cause that college of course is going to claim everything is hunky dury if it wants to attract students who might major in Computer Science.

 

[raross]

You need to take an economics class my friend. Your logic is *** backwards. By the schools not pumping out enough kids it will only improve our situation (software engineers). Hence we will get better salary and benefits, since the demand is high but the supply of cs/engineering majors are not.

 

[jaeusm]

Your link goes to a college site.

Actually, it is a link to another link -- the New York Times, which is not a college. I posted an indirect link because viewing a New York Times article requires registration, which is free, btw.

It's funny that you use stats to back everything you say because you haven't been in the real world.

I am in the real world, but anecdotal evidence doesn't hold any weight. Thus, I avoid it. Unfortunately, you don't.

Top Jobs 2006 List...

For all I know, you made that up. Reference? Here's a best job list from 2006 from CNN's Money Magazine with #1 being software engineer:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/top50/index.html

and from the iEEE web site,...

You do realize that they are speaking of the job market in the first quarter 2003, right? We're three years past that. In 2003, that was true. It's not true now.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/24/pf/college/class_of_2006/index.htm

But many times, the problem is for US workers, they are judged no on their IT work but their communication skills. Yet, half the workforce being hired can't speak english.

That must be unpleasant for you if your spoken English is as poor as your written English.

Don't claim you know what your talking about because you read a couple of books.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, as I haven't read any books related to the job market. However, if I had, I'd be more likely to put my trust in them than anecdotes from a forum poster.

If you want to believe that we're all going to lose our jobs to outsourcing, I'm not stopping you. At this point, it's quite clear that you believe the sky is falling, and I'm not going to continue trying to convince you otherwise. Enjoy your job -- if it hasn't been outsourced by the time you go back to work Monday.

 

[pjam76]

you are not in IT

And your not an engineer.

if you don't know what the IEEE is then your whole conversation is pointless.

Go look up their website and their information.

Go to http://www.ieee.org

and maybe you'd realize what is really going on in the world.

But I guess that organization doesn't mean much to you.

AKA you are not an Engineer then. Plain and simple.

go to a legit respected MAGAZINE at

http://www.fastcompany.com/articles/2006/01/top-jobs-main.html

to find the top jobs of 2006.


go to

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm

where it says Software Engineering is a good field to get into but also read where it says that due to OUTSOURCING it is not growing as fast as it did in previous decades.

or

http://intl-programs.uiowa.edu/accents/2006/spring/Outsourcing.html

or

http://www.sandhill.com/opinion/daily_blog.php?id=27


or

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_econindicators_jobspict_20060707

or

go to the Reuters website about outsourcing.

Heck go read some news about whats going on in INDIA. Cause they are concnerned about outsourcing to markets like China.


http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2006/05/heres_a_twist_w.html

You know, jobs go to the lowest bidder.
You keep listing one or two freaking sites.


here's a link that talks about the positives and negatives of outsourcing and what might be done by businesses in the future.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_05/b3969401.htm

heck mcdonalds is starting to source out it drive through menu system,

http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2906/next-outsourced-job-fast-food-order-taker

Many call centers and help desks now are no longer in the US.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/13940642.htm

Well theres tons of links......

You have to be a moron to not think OUTSOURCING DOES NOT EFFECT the IT industry in the US.

Hey believe what you want to believe, but I grew up during an era when people like you shouted that OUTSOURCING doesn't matter.

You know what, maybe it doesn't. But go ask the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people who lost jobs when the manufacturing and factories across the US shut down.

Go ask the thousands of TOWNS and small cities that are like abandon junk yards across the United States.

You are a complete idiot to say it has nothing to do with anything. You read one or two freaking REPORTS and think thats the way it is.

You are probably some spoiled college kid who majored in computer science and you think you know it all.

hey good for you that you majored in computer science. Maybe everything will work out for you. But the fact is, you obviously were not in IT during the dot com days. It's plain and simple by what you say and don't say.


And know economics 101 is not effected because kids aren't majoring in engineering. THE IT and ENGINEERING DEPARTMENTS budgets are effected when nobody jumps on the bandwagon.
Kids just choose different fields and those colleges still get their money it's just those departments and organizations that back those departments will be pushing for MONEY and not cuts.

Can't stop cuts if nobody is majoring in Engineering.

hey listen to Bill Gates complain there are fewere students majoring in Engineering in the US and then a few days later make plans to open IT houses in India and China.

http://www.ieeeusa.org/policy/policy/2003/061803.html

http://www.ia.pw.edu.pl/set06/Satellite.html

http://www.bls.gov/k12/computers04.htm

another line that states software engineering is a good field but it links everything SECURITY, Programmer, etc as a software Engineer and it does not state who will get the jobs... Outsourced, H1B visas or US citizens. But none the less it does say IT IS NOT Growing AS FAST AS THE LAST DECADE.

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/060303_jobs.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsourcing

more links for you

http://www.ddj.com/dept/architect/184415489

The fact is people can get by but they'll have to adapt.

It's BS and irresponsible to tell some kid that going into Computer Science will make them lots of money.

Kids see 80K plus for Software Engineering and their eyes light up. Heck many people's eyes light up.
But the fact is by the time a kid graduates college, there are just as many Software Engineering jobs in India/china/phillipines as there are in the US.

Yeah say 300,000 new jobs are created in IT by 2010.
Even though predicting new jobs has always been a crap shoot.

But go back to 1998 and look at the reports. 2001 and beyond made those reports look foolish about the IT market.

Anyway say 300,000 new Engineering jobs are created and since most labor stats throw in Security, programming, testing, designing, and so on as a Software Engineer, then it's easy to assume that's not as much as you first might think.

It's also easy to assume that it's not just 300,000 JOBS for the US.

It's 300,000 jobs.

If 100,000 are outsourced and 100,000 are given to h1b visas, that means only 100,000 new jobs for US citizens.

And the fact is a kid out of college with very little experience is going to have a hard time getting an entry level position in IT.

yeah if they jump on the help desk bandwagon or some jr entry level assignment it's nice, but there are many people working who 5 years later haven't exacly moved up the ladder.

Get your head out of the sand and look what's going on around you.

yeah it's not the end of the world, but it's stupid to say OUTSOURCING has no effect because you read some stupid statistic from the labor department that said it's not.


h1b visa info

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9001562

and more

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/05/17/AM200605175.html


Just because a stat says 300,000 jobs doesn't always mean what's written.

 

[Chankama]

Why?

In response to: "I'd hate to be 35+ and still be a coder..."

Just a matter of personal choice I suppose. While it's great to "create great s/w programs", I'd like to move up the ladder someday. Programming is fun and interesting - but, do you REALLY want to do that for life?

Without any disrespect to medicine and law, honestly, if you go to a good engineering school, the students there are pretty **** smart compared to their equivalents in medicine and law. I would even say that they are better "thinkers". But, that's another debate isn't it.

Yet, who gets more respect in this world?..... A doctor, a lawyer, or a programmer?

It's an ungrateful profession we are in...

Anyways, it's an interesting debate you guys have going on with respect to the job market now and back then and outsourcing.. .. Do keep the personal insults out of it though.

As someone in the computer industry, I do worry about over seas competition. THey work for less and they are happy with it. And their competency level is increasing by the day. IIT (in India) for example, is compared to the likes of MIT by some. But, then again, not all Indian programmers are IIT grads.

 

[jaeusm]

And your not an engineer.

It's "you're", and I won't further dignify that baseless statement.

if you don't know what the IEEE is then your whole conversation is pointless.

One baseless reponse after another. How many IEEE research conferences have you attended? How many research articles have you submitted to IEEE conferences for publication? How many presentations have you made at IEEE conferences? I've done all these things.

go to a legit respected MAGAZINE at...

CNN isn't legit / respected?

I have to admit, I stopped reading your post at this point. Your posts have become so juvenile that you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Then again, maybe you are a juvenile masquerading as an adult. You certainly act like it.

 

[jaeusm]

Just a matter of personal choice I suppose. While it's great to "create great s/w programs", I'd like to move up the ladder someday. Programming is fun and interesting - but, do you REALLY want to do that for life?

Fair enough.

If I was only developing business apps in IT, then no, I wouldn't want to do that for the rest of my life. Fortunately, I'm on the engineering side doing device control and embedded systems. The senior engineers where I work are 35+, with one exception. I suppose it depends largely on the types of projects and the environment.

 

[pjam76]

Funny

You are one of those people who don't read.

As soon as somebody posts links that make claims against what you're saying, you say, "Hey i stopped reading your post.."

This argument is over because you are clueless. You are some college kid not even in the industry.

It's pointless to communicate with people like you who are "internet heros." The same people who in the real world don't know a thing.