not me...

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Hey, it's possible you actually had something worthwhile to say buried under all the insults, but why should I bother? Besides, the only point you've tried to make is that there's a conspiracy -- my sources of information are just trying to deceive the general population. How can I argue with that line of reasoning?

I realize there are conflicting sources of information. You're not the first person in this forum to point that out. A month or two ago this was already discussed. I tend to have more faith in major, mainstream sources than those on the fringes.

I was a "college kid" for 9 years, but that time has passed. Well, I'm not really in the IT industry, as I posted previously, I'm on the engineering side. Some college, however, might do you some good. It could help straighten out your faulty logic and ability to reason.
 
Interesting

It's funny how your logic is skewed.

Your sources are legit but the IEEE isn't, business week, economics, various other magazines, heck even the President of the United States isn't.

Maybe your 9 years in college were spent partying then actually learning, who knows.

I have no conspiracy theory. You say you're an engineering major. So that means you must have at least taken a basic math course. You must have taken a statistics course.

The facts are if there are 300,000 jobs and 100,000 H1Bvisas that leaves 200, 000 jobs left. Maybe it goes to Americans, maybe it goes to citizens of other countries. Whatever the case, statistics are used to point out one agenda.

For all the resources I found, I'm sure you could find 1000s of your own to back up your point.

Predicting job growth is almost like predicting the weather. More times then not it's been wrong.

No matter what stat you pull up, there are other resources to back up another point.

Like I said, it is irresponsible to keep blasting the mantra that Software Engineering is the field to be in.

These blasts are all about attracting young people into the profession. And some 17 year old kid sees 80k a year... Some 17 year old kid hears people like you spew out how great it is, they will jump on that bandwagon.

Can it be good? Of course it can turn out good. But more times then not there are plenty of kids who find out that the entry level market for IT is not there.

So that same 17 year old kid who is now 22 finds out that 80k he expected was a pipe dream. And don't point out that they shouldn't expect that to begin with. These reports are all aimed at High School kids. Heck, listen to Bill Gates once in a while and everything he says about education and engineering is aimed at young kids.

It's irresponsible when somebody like a Bill Gates claims kids need to get into science and engineering and computers and then the next day open up offices in India.

It's a simple fact of life. It's simple math. If they hire 10,000 people in India or China or Mongolia for that matter, it usually means they are not hiring 10,000 people in the US. Otherwise, they wouldn't have opened up over there in the first place.

And like I said before, obviously you have never seen what outsourcing can do.

While it might never get to that point in IT, the fact is, there really are no Manufacturing or Factories left in the USA.
Entire towns are like ghost towns.
Millions of people lost their jobs, lives, careers.

But it was not just the people who worked in that industry.
Those towns had restaurants, small businesses, larger businesses and other places that thrived because of those Factories and manufacturing plants.

Ii is no conspiracy that many of those same towns nor people ever recovered. Go drive across the country one day and visit some of these infamous manufacturing towns. It's not a pretty site.

While I can't imagine it happening like that for Engineering firms, IT houses, and so on, it is not impossible.

Do the simple math. Business is all about money. The CEOs and boards want their bonuses and if they have to cut 50,000 workers to keep that money coming, so be it. If they destroy a town, so be it.

Outsourcing is not a conspiracy. It's a fact of life that has happened over and over and over again.

It always goes to the lowest bidder.

People who think they are untouchable are sadly mistaken. Everybody is replaceable. It's a fact of life.

If you don't think your not, then I guess you are never going to die because last time I checked, no human being lives forever. Which means everybody is replaced. Sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the better, but most of the time it's all about the same.

Outsourcing isn't a conspiracy. It well change the landscape. YOu can believe that or not.

It's been done before and it'll be done again.

The Business world is all about money.

If I pay you 80k per year but can pay some Indian to do the same work for 10k per year. Who do you think I'm running to.

And when that Indian demands 25k per year I'll go run to China where I can pay them 2k per year.

And don't assume these people can't do your job, because the fact is, many of them are are just as smart as people in the US.

Conspiracy this and conspiracy that. Fact is it's no conspiracy at all. It's a fact of life. There always has been outsorucing and there always will be. Jobs will be lost because of it. If you don't think it will, then you know nothing about history.

The fact is people need to adapt and change. Majoring in Computer Science is great, but those same people better start learning about business real fast, otherwise they'll be without a job.

Fact is people in IT, regardless if they were programmers, engineers, architects, designers, etc have always been those who did not fit into the corporate culture. Many were extremely intelligent but they couldn't communicate very well. It worked for years because computers were the "wow" factor.

But computers are no longer the "wow" factor. Computers and IT now have become just like anything else in business. It's all about the bottom line. If you can't communicate what's going on in IT, they'll get somebody to replace you. It's that simple.

To say outsourcing is a conspiracy is a joke.

Like I said, maybe you should drive across the country and visit some of these ghost towns from our Manufacturing and Factory past.

Yes it's about adapting. But pushing Software Engineering as some utopian society where everybody gets a job and makes great money is not responsible. Not when the push is aimed at kids.

Teach them that they should learn about software engineering, security, business, communications and so on.

Maybe they'll learn that in college, maybe they won't. But I've been around long enough to know that many who go into the Computer Science field are not exactly whats known as good communicators.
 
Jaesum: why did you go to school for 9 years? Graduate school? or just on and off under grad?

I believe pj has proven his stupidity in every single post he has made. I see no point in even replying to this guy anymore. His assumptions are ridiculous and radical.

Pj is either very young or very uneducated. He may of been one of those guys 15 years ago who if they could plug in a computer were considered "god" and recieved a nice salary + bonuses. Then shortly after the market matured, these guys were thrown out on the street. His attitude seems to be stemming from one of these guys, although who knows.
 
Interesting

That raross can't read.

Guess you don't need to read to graduate college anymore.

Fact is it's not assumptions. Do the research.

Again, I guess you missed the whole Manufacturing and Factory companies who disappeared off the face of the US landscape.

Or wait, thats an assumption to.

Get you head out of the sand and wake up.

Your posts prove you are a moron.
 
jaeusm said:

If I was only developing business apps in IT, then no, I wouldn't want to do that for the rest of my life. Fortunately, I'm on the engineering side doing device control and embedded systems. The senior engineers where I work are 35+, with one exception. I suppose it depends largely on the types of projects and the environment.

I am an embedded s/w developer as well - C/C++. While we get to design our own components, the "impact" engineering decisions are made at the management level. I think every capable engineer should stive to reach that level. Of course, there are only a "few" of those positions available.. :)
 
As for the "debate", I am not really sure at what stage of the debate you guys are in.

I would imagine the job market was more "friendly" to techies during the .dot com era. More funding, more companies, more money flying around. Based on the job experiences that my friends went through, I think they had an easier time finding jobs back then than now. I should know considering a whole mass of them graduated around that time.

I didn't really feel like dealing with the job market, so I just went for my masters. And as for overseas employees, I think they are definitely qualified to do a number of programming jobs. Due to the differences in the economics/expectations, they work for a lot less than us. I suppose society has a way of equalizing things at some point. A lot of parts and drugs are manufactured in asia right now. We'll see how the life of a "programmer" evolves in the future. :). To ANYONE going into IT and hope to stay there for a while, I would say a Masters is a minimum requirement.
 
Chankama said:
As for the "debate", I am not really sure at what stage of the debate you guys are in.

I would imagine the job market was more "friendly" to techies during the .dot com era. More funding, more companies, more money flying around. Based on the job experiences that my friends went through, I think they had an easier time finding jobs back then than now. I should know considering a whole mass of them graduated around that time.

I didn't really feel like dealing with the job market, so I just went for my masters. And as for overseas employees, I think they are definitely qualified to do a number of programming jobs. Due to the differences in the economics/expectations, they work for a lot less than us. I suppose society has a way of equalizing things at some point. A lot of parts and drugs are manufactured in asia right now. We'll see how the life of a "programmer" evolves in the future. :). To ANYONE going into IT and hope to stay there for a while, I would say a Masters is a minimum requirement.

Yup, I would agree. Need to get your foot in fast (start your career while in college, not after) then continue your education.
 
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