Potentially the longest thread in history...

Joe C

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You just gotta wait 20 years... everyone will have gigabit fiber even in rural Uganda, edge node CDN's everywhere and some crazy almost magic like AI based lag compensation that noone really knows how it works except some 170 IQ person at MIT that invented it.
Quantum internet connections on our quantum pc's!
 

kmanmx

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OR, and hear me out, they fix the queue system lol.

Ha, still doesn't solve for the all the times you've died because even someone with a good 20 / 30ms ping got the drop on you due to otherwise undetectable lag :p

Also, Nvidia released a hotfix patch for the flashing and I had no idea. Didn't get pushed via Geforce Experience, but you can grab it here if you didn't realise like me https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5407
 

PP Mguire

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Ha, still doesn't solve for the all the times you've died because even someone with a good 20 / 30ms ping got the drop on you due to otherwise undetectable lag :p

Also, Nvidia released a hotfix patch for the flashing and I had no idea. Didn't get pushed via Geforce Experience, but you can grab it here if you didn't realise like me https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5407
Nah, if pings are within a limitation to the queue depth the server doesn't need to compensate between a 3ms and 100ms ping. Now aim assist acting like heads are magnets, that's a different thing.

Thanks for the tip, I didn't know either.
 

kmanmx

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Nah, if pings are within a limitation to the queue depth the server doesn't need to compensate between a 3ms and 100ms ping. Now aim assist acting like heads are magnets, that's a different thing.

Thanks for the tip, I didn't know either.
Idk what you are referring to with queue depth tbh, but doesn't sound like how I had heard lag compensation works. Unless they are doing something new but a google search reveals nothing *shrug*
 

PP Mguire

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Idk what you are referring to with queue depth tbh, but doesn't sound like how I had heard lag compensation works. Unless they are doing something new but a google search reveals nothing *shrug*
Not the right term, I made a stupid. The lobby is supposed to team you by latency. That's why it says "searching <26ms" or whatever. The system leverages this by fitting lower latency people to lower latency people at the closest CDN per region. So in return there really isn't any "lag compensation", only the engine doing its best to keep all things 1:1. Now if it says searching <26ms and I'm 3ms, my buddy is 10ms, yet I'm seeing way higher than 26 on there? I know it'll be a bad time. When pings are generally closer together there isn't a "feel like I'm 1s behind everybody" syndrome. If you come across somebody that looks like they shot you around the wall, in reality they were around the corner already just you weren't fed that information yet because they're 100ms behind you. So on your screen it looks like you were turning the corner but you got shot. The fact that higher ping can lobby with lower ping is precisely all the problems we're facing.
 

kmanmx

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Not the right term, I made a stupid. The lobby is supposed to team you by latency. That's why it says "searching <26ms" or whatever. The system leverages this by fitting lower latency people to lower latency people at the closest CDN per region. So in return there really isn't any "lag compensation", only the engine doing its best to keep all things 1:1. Now if it says searching <26ms and I'm 3ms, my buddy is 10ms, yet I'm seeing way higher than 26 on there? I know it'll be a bad time. When pings are generally closer together there isn't a "feel like I'm 1s behind everybody" syndrome. If you come across somebody that looks like they shot you around the wall, in reality they were around the corner already just you weren't fed that information yet because they're 100ms behind you. So on your screen it looks like you were turning the corner but you got shot. The fact that higher ping can lobby with lower ping is precisely all the problems we're facing.

Ah yeah. I was reading a Valve dev blog on multiplayer with no lag comepensation vs using it. Was quite interesting. They basically said no lag compensation sucks because you have to lead your aim relative to your latency, which is very difficult. Lag compensation means everyone can aim naturally at their target no matter their ping, which is ofcourse true in MW2 and every other modern MP game. Then every time you shoot somebody the server rewinds its real authoritive player location state by the amount of latency the client has to see if the client would have scored a hit. And thats what causes the “died round the corner” thing like the example you gave. From the guy that killed yous perspective you were never around the corner and he landed a clean kill. Though Valve noted thats a worst case scenario and for example with players running towards you the lag compensation makes little difference as the bullets will hit someone running directly at you in a straight line whether there is zero latency or 200ms. And if you run adjacent to someone in a hallway, they are outside your FOV and so when you die you generally dont feel hard done by because you didnt see what they were doing anyway. But conclusion from Valve is all of that feels better than your bullets not hitting the enemy when you aim at them correctly because you didnt lead your shot by 20ms or whatever. Now if everyone had a 3ms ping like you had, I guess you wouldnt need to lead your shot either… so yeah it would be a real nice feature if you could do a hard clamp on the matchmaking latency even if it meant you had to wait 5 minutes to get a server where everyone is sub 10ms.
 

PP Mguire

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which is ofcourse true in MW2 and every other modern MP game.
Which isn't the case. Otherwise those scenarios wouldn't happen regardless if my ping was 3 and my enemy 100. A good example of a game with great lag compensation is Rocket League. I can have a ping of 20 and another guy 120 and it's still relatively smooth until they have a spike. There are only real problems when some dudes connection takes a shit then the cars get crazy for a second, we rubber band, then the AI pops in and it's good. Back in the day CoD used hosted lobbies for this very reason and people bitched they wanted dedicated servers because somebody with a ping of 200 would host and it'd be a lag fest. If they DO have any lag compensation at all then it's clearly not working right and neither is their latency queue system. That precisely is my problem. If the queue system worked properly with a decently tuned server side lag comp you won't need to lead your shots like it's MW3 in 1999 because <26ms means that, less than 26ms. Not "oh this guy seems fine, let's toss in 94ms so he has a game and his VPN definitely shows he's in the central US region". Matter a fact, if the damn queue system worked there wouldn't need to really be any lag comp.
Then every time you shoot somebody the server rewinds its real authoritive player location state by the amount of latency the client has to see if the client would have scored a hit. And thats what causes the “died round the corner” thing like the example you gave.
Yes this is how it works BUT you're forgetting the extra perspectives I outlined. For instance how about the scenario where I came around the corner, my buddy was behind me, and in my perspective the guy JUMPED so I aimed up to dome him (mind you was using a shotgun) but he killed me without even looking at me. My friends perspective he didn't jump, the killcam he didn't jump. In his killcam he was looking at me, in my buddies he wasn't and didn't jump. To turn and jump we're talking at least a second of lag for us to not see it. Valve's explanation would insinuate that the killcam which should be the other players perspective would reflect what they did but killcam has historically been inaccurate because it represents what the server sees. It's in the "perspective" of the other player but it's showing a log from the server itself which doesn't account for lag. If the server is showing he was looking at me without jumping, I saw a jump, my buddy didn't.......that's a serious damn problem.

I know I'm cutting hairs here but it's 2022 and FPS online has been around for over 2 damn decades. I could play Descent online on dialup without severe issues back in 2003. We're talking a game where most people have a minimum of 100x that speed and more these days. We're talking a game that was practically refreshed from the previous title with very little in terms of real change and they had it right before. A game that made over 800mil on launch weekend and costs 70 bucks.

One last thing I haven't taken into account yet with all of this is their anti-cheat. Idk how the system works, so I can't speculate how anti-cheat calculations might play in all this and so far I haven't seen what I'd consider actual cheaters yet (cause Warzone isn't out yet). Although I know cheats were already active in the beta.
 

kmanmx

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Which isn't the case. Otherwise those scenarios wouldn't happen regardless if my ping was 3 and my enemy 100. A good example of a game with great lag compensation is Rocket League. I can have a ping of 20 and another guy 120 and it's still relatively smooth until they have a spike. There are only real problems when some dudes connection takes a shit then the cars get crazy for a second, we rubber band, then the AI pops in and it's good. Back in the day CoD used hosted lobbies for this very reason and people bitched they wanted dedicated servers because somebody with a ping of 200 would host and it'd be a lag fest. If they DO have any lag compensation at all then it's clearly not working right and neither is their latency queue system. That precisely is my problem. If the queue system worked properly with a decently tuned server side lag comp you won't need to lead your shots like it's MW3 in 1999 because <26ms means that, less than 26ms. Not "oh this guy seems fine, let's toss in 94ms so he has a game and his VPN definitely shows he's in the central US region". Matter a fact, if the damn queue system worked there wouldn't need to really be any lag comp.
I'm not sure what you mean by"Otherwise those scenarios wouldn't happen regardless if my ping was 3 and my enemy 100", the "round the wall" scenario is exactly what lag compensation causes when two players have far apart pings. Lag compensation is why you kill a person by aiming at them no matter what yours or theirs ping is. You don't have to lead your shots for their shitty ping. MW2 has lag compensation, every modern MP game has it for the reason Valve outlined, the alternative is worse. Ofcourse it's not perfect, it can not solve all and every networking problem and there are gonna be hard limits. If someone has a tonne of packet loss and 150ms ping or whatever, then there are gonna be unsolvable problems.

Rocket League is a much easier game in terms of networking. It's often 2v2 or 3v3, the maps are small, there are not 1000's of raycasted projectiles been thrown across a map every second. The only moving projectile is the ball, and it's slow as hell. It's about as easy of a networking situation as you can have for a game. Also lag compensation doesn't stop rubber banding.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CodAW/comments/2q655u/_/cn3aq8i
According to this post, he explains it fairly well, but links to an Activision forum post where the devs went into more detail on how it works... too bad the forum got closed, would've been interesting to read. Though reading it again I think he means other devs, not CoD's. Still would've been a nice read I guess.

It does wind me up a bit that so many people think it's such an easy problem to solve though. It isn't easy to solve which is why so many games have the problem, from PUBG to Battlefield to MW2. It's not just "retarded devs" like reddit commenters seem to think. There is absolutely no interest from the devs perspective in having lag, it's probably the bane of their life, it's the #1 complaint of almost every gamer, and it's gonna cause a lot of players to stop playing if they feel like lag is a real problem, which the game devs obviously don't want. Sure there are games with better implementations than others, but there is a pretty direct correlation between complexity of game and how good the networking feels, unsurprisingly. What you are fundamentally asking for with multiplayer gaming is to perfectly synchronise the actions of players 100's of kilometers apart across infrastructure that for a large part you have no control over, and very real physics is telling you NOPE.

edit:

For the record, i'm obviously not saying that things in MW2 are perfect.. the asian player problem is real, and no doubt there are some netcode things that will be tidied up in due course. I'm just ranting against the "devs are retarded" brigade.
 
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PP Mguire

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Yes this is how it works BUT you're forgetting the extra perspectives I outlined. For instance how about the scenario where I came around the corner, my buddy was behind me, and in my perspective the guy JUMPED so I aimed up to dome him (mind you was using a shotgun) but he killed me without even looking at me. My friends perspective he didn't jump, the killcam he didn't jump. In his killcam he was looking at me, in my buddies he wasn't and didn't jump. To turn and jump we're talking at least a second of lag for us to not see it. Valve's explanation would insinuate that the killcam which should be the other players perspective would reflect what they did but killcam has historically been inaccurate because it represents what the server sees. It's in the "perspective" of the other player but it's showing a log from the server itself which doesn't account for lag. If the server is showing he was looking at me without jumping, I saw a jump, my buddy didn't.......that's a serious damn problem.
You forgot this part, server queues, and MW19. We can't blame it on Warzone because it isn't out yet, and can't really blame it on cheaters because their anti cheat works rather well from what I've seen. MW19 from the beta didn't exactly have this issue and in the past 2 years of playing it or Cold War I never had a server lag issue. I stopped playing them for quite a while until Ricochet was released, but I did pop in from time to time when others asked me to play. These games use the exact same engine (except Cold War uses BO3 engine IW3). They can call it 9.0 all the want, but it's the same. We can deduce from their lack of addressing the issue that it's severe or they have no idea how to deal with it. My problem with it all still boils down to the #1 thing, if the server queue worked properly it would be a nonissue. If I queue in a lobby with <26ms I should be paired with people of similar latency give or take. Done deal. Lag comp and other factors don't matter there. If it works properly in 19, it should work properly in this one and it doesn't.
What you are fundamentally asking for with multiplayer gaming is to perfectly synchronise the actions of players 100's of kilometers apart across infrastructure that for a large part you have no control over, and very real physics is telling you NOPE.
What I'm fundamentally asking is for them to actually have it do what it's supposed to do. They lobby by region and ping for exactly what you just said. If this game was reworked from the ground up I would sing a different tune, but it's not. It's a copy and paste job that went backwards in terms of important things and forwards in game mechanics. Having actual developer friends who make games in various engines, if I ask them if I'm being too overly critical and they say no then I feel I have a leg to stand on from not only a server/networking engineer perspective but also now a dev perspective. We all think the same thing. Lag comp, regioning, queues, engine, something.
One asked me if maybe I was dealing with bufferbloat, nope. A+ on Waveform and 3.63 Jitter on Cloudflare for Dallas.
Ookla results to Dallas ping of 2 unloaded, 3 loaded.
Testing to LA, ping of 30 unloaded, 31 loaded.
Testing to Miami, ping of 31 unloaded, 34 loaded.
Testing to Big Apple, ping of 48 unloaded, 49 loaded.
Those numbers reflect perfectly with what I get online in Rocket League minus Dallas since they don't have a central server location that I know of.
So even if I was put in different regions due to SBMM or the lobby queue for whatever reason I wouldn't be the point of lag and neither should others in that region to me. Proper lobby queues by latency would restrict VPN users as well which is what I think is causing the actual problem honestly.
 
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