Is the Universe Deterministic?

[BennyV04988]

So in my materials class the other day, my teacher asked us what the difference between deterministic and stochastic was. It got me thinking though if anything was really "stochastic" ( indeterminate) or are we simply incapable of measuring and accounting for all of the variables of the universe?

I mean, things often "appear" random, but we all know that a bouncing basketball's path is governed by universal laws, we just can't predict where it will go so we merely call it random.

So if everything of that sort is deterministic, is all of the complexity and interconnectedness of reality moving towards an inescapable, unique state that is predetermined by it's current state? Is this one HUGE closed system with essentially infinite variables?

If so, then where is / what is consciousness? Do we have free will at all?

 

[Trotter]

If so, then where is / what is consciousness? Do we have free will at all?

You can go as deep as you want with that one, but it just an exercise in foolishness. Can you think? Then you have free will. I am not one who thinks everything is already laid out to the most minute detail and we are merely going through the motions.

While physics tries to take all the variables possible into account, it is still just a mathematical simulation and not real life. Inanimate objects are predictable, such as how a tree will fall, but living, thinking creatures are not so easy. We can hazard a guess, but we just don't know because it is happening RIGHT NOW. If you have ever guessed wrong when trying to miss a deer while you are driving, you know exactly what I mean.

The very fact that you can ponder something like this shows that you have the very free will you are trying to discover.

 

[BennyV04988]

*sigh*

I know what you are saying, but the implications of it are still hard to grasp if you're honest with yourself. It's like "thought" breaks the deterministic nature of the universe, because the course of matter becomes open ended. Consciousness remains a phenomenon but in a different light.

I've been reading a lot of books written by Dawkins, Sagan, Tyson, etc on cosmology, evolution, astronomy and the likes. One concept being looked at is the correlation between order and randomness, and how complexity can emerge from simplicity, ie 4 forces from 1 as the universe cooled. The more I read the less I understand.

I'm beginning to agree with Richard Dawkins in his hunch that the Universe may just be "queerer that we can suppose" in it's creative abilities and current complexity.

And yes, I seem to have fallen off the American Dream boat, wherein I am supposed to make babies, watch sports and be content.... 0_0

 

[KSoD]

Meh.

Sorry but trying to rationalize the world we live in is just not gonna happen. Everything is not predetermined by no calculation. If that was the case then the movie Minority Report would be true with the Pre-Crime Division of every area.

If you really think about it. I mean we would be able to determine every crime that would ever be comminted and stop that person before they did it if the universe could be predicted.

Which would also stop the Religious wars cause we could the predict what really happens in teh future to the world and its people.

there is no stopping a belief or someone course of action. Just like it could not be predicted what i woudl say to this thread.

Each person reads into these theories and subjects brought up by these people and come to their own conclusion. Who is to say they are right? Who is to say that they are wrong?

Each persons thoughts and actions can not be determined nor predicted. Just look at people like Plato that tried to predict the universe and Einstein and Gallaeo. The list goes on. Most of them were wrong with many things they said. But then again most of them were right as well.

We can predict somethings with science and that. But not when it comes to people. Thigns liek a basketball yeah sure. Cause we can control how hard, fast and where we bounce it from. But when it comes to feelings and things that have no physical value then the predictions become useless.

 

[Apokalipse]

In order to predict something, you need to know all of the relevant internal and external circumstances, and have enough computing/brain power to find where it will end up.
In some cases, neither is possible (see Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle)

Even when the number of circumstances required to know is limited and simple enough to predict whatever it is you want to predict, one cannot realistically measure them to an accuracy of 100%
you can perhaps be 99.999% accurate, but never 100%
Well, almost never. The probability may not be exactly zero, but it's immeasurably small.

For example, you measure a distance of 1 metre with a 1 metre ruler.
How do you know that that distance is 100% the same as what a metre is supposed to be?
you don't. but you can at least have an accurate approximation.
though one could argue that the distance of 1 metre that you measured is the distance a metre should be. But the probability of being able to replicate that distance to a 100% accuracy is almost zero. Not exactly zero, but almost.
But again, you can at the very least have a 99.99% approximation. And in practicality, that's probably accurate enough for almost any purpose we would use.

Though you can't technically know anything about the external world absolutely.
Technically speaking, I can't be 100% sure that I'm posting on tech-forums. I can be 99.99999% sure though.
But what I do know absolutely is that I'm having the experience of posting on what I am calling 'tech-forums', even if it's somehow fake.

But the probability that tech-forums doesn't exist, althouth it is nonzero, is so immeasurably small that it's not worth considering.

 

[KSoD]

Alright you gone to deep on that one Apok.

Good info to think about.

 

[Ste]

Too deep you say.

Hrmm, What could Apock and I unlease upon you mak?

 

[Apokalipse]

I mean, things often "appear" random, but we all know that a bouncing basketball's path is governed by universal laws, we just can't predict where it will go so we merely call it random.

There are some things that are easy to model to a large degree of accuracy.
Such as: the harder you shove it, the faster it moves. And if you don't do anything to it, nothing happens. (f = ma, m = "it")

or if you wanted an even larger degree of accuracy, M = M0 x 1 / √(1 - V²/C²)

 

[mssssee2]

I believe it is, as if you input the exact same data, exactly the same things will happen, but even a slightest change can affect everything.