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Old 12-17-2007, 08:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

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WMP is already not installed on the UK versions of their product to meet with the EU standards. Why is it so hard to ask they give Opera and Firefox as a installer on the desktop?
I see what you're trying to say, Mak, but like Cntdwn said, why would M$ want to include competitor's products (albeit all the browsers are free for download, so they don't get any increase in sales, like you said). It's marketing.

I actually do like IE...haven't had a problem with it at all... FF/Opera are ok, but I still prefer IE because that's what I've been using for so long, so I'm most familiar with it.
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:15 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

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Originally Posted by Makaveli213 View Post
WMP is already not installed on the UK versions of their product to meet with the EU standards. Why is it so hard to ask they give Opera and Firefox as a installer on the desktop?

Opera may not be under the GPL but it is freeware. I am sure if Opera was contacted to have their browser to be included by default in a Windows install they would gladly give permission. So the GPL license can be gotten around. Being Freeware doesnt mean you ahve to follow the GPL. That is only Open Source. Not Freeware.
The difference with the WMP thing is that they didn't make Microsoft include competitors to WMP in their Windows install; they just made them not include WMP. No one can make Microsoft include a competitor's software; they can just make them not include something. Another difference is that you can exclude WMP and still be able to download it and install it if IE is on there. But you can't exclude IE and still be able to download and install IE with no web browser. Again, there's no way MS will ever include a competitor's software in their install. Sure IE is downloaded for free, but only for authenticated Windows users. IE makes up part of the Windows experience, even if other browsers are better.

About the Opera not being GPL thing. My point had nothing to do with Windows. My point was that that is why Linux distros don't include it. Usually Linux distros only include GPL software unless something is necessary that doesn't have a GPL alternative.
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

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Again, there's no way MS will ever include a competitor's software in their install. Sure IE is downloaded for free, but only for authenticated Windows users
I put IE6 on my Ubuntu partition for poops and laughs...lol.
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

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Originally Posted by Makaveli213 View Post
I understand the points being made. But again i stress the fact that IE does not have to be the default. IE is free to download it self and therefor gives M$ no advantage with it being pre-isntalled.
ah, but you see there is an advantage with it installed......




it's installed and ready to use.
It can bring you aaaaaaany where you want, and has brought maaaaaaany people to mozilla, opera, and in the very slim case, netscape...which i really liked using in the early days
i'm sure my netscape navigator gold cd is laying around somewhere....
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:18 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

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Originally Posted by CntdwnToExtn View Post
ah, but you see there is an advantage with it installed......




it's installed and ready to use.
It can bring you aaaaaaany where you want, and has brought maaaaaaany people to mozilla, opera, and in the very slim case, netscape...which i really liked using in the early days
i'm sure my netscape navigator gold cd is laying around somewhere....
He said it gives MS no advantage, not other people. A lot of people don't understand his point. He is saying they can put installers for all 3 of the browsers on the computer. Then they choose and install. They are all free so no one gets an advantage. He isn't saying that you won't be able to go and download them or access the web. He is saying there could be INSTALLERS on the DESKTOP that you can INSTALL without going to the companies WEBSITE.

Words bolded and caps for stress.

And to the people "Why would MS include competitors products?" Last time I checked all of those browsers are free to use. Therefore you can't really call them competitors as they are offering free products. Why would they include them? Because people like to use browsers other than IE and would probably like to just be able to install it on their first start up rather than downloading (Even though it takes a few seconds).
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Old 12-19-2007, 08:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

Well, first of all, you know how when you buy a computer it always has installers on the desktop for a free trial of AOL and many other things? Those installers for AOL, etc. are not put there by Windows. They are put there by the computer manufacturer because of a deal they had with AOL, i.e. AOL pays them money to do that. Maybe a manufacturer could be persuaded to put installers for Opera & Firefox on there, but MS will never do it.

About the argument that all of these browsers are free so it doesn't matter and they are not competition. IE is not free. It is only free to those with authenticated versions of Windows and that is because when you buy Windows, a little bit of that money goes to IE. If you are running Linux, you can't legally download IE even though it will run in Wine. Opera and Firefox are also not free of charge. They are free to the end user, but they have massive amounts of financial backing from someone. And if they aren't being used, no one is going to financially back these projects and the developers don't get paid. So even though you don't pay for them, it still is a competition.

Another reason it matters to MS is because it is part of the Windows experience to be able to say that I can have an OS that is already capable of doing the things I need it to do without my having to do anything to get it that way. Some people don't want to have to install something; they just want what they have to work.

I'm definitely not saying that IE is better than Opera or Firefox. What I'm saying is that it is an integral part of Windows, so just leave it alone and use what you want.
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Old 12-19-2007, 08:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

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Originally Posted by forrestcupp View Post
The difference with the WMP thing is that they didn't make Microsoft include competitors to WMP in their Windows install; they just made them not include WMP. No one can make Microsoft include a competitor's software; they can just make them not include something. Another difference is that you can exclude WMP and still be able to download it and install it if IE is on there. But you can't exclude IE and still be able to download and install IE with no web browser. Again, there's no way MS will ever include a competitor's software in their install. Sure IE is downloaded for free, but only for authenticated Windows users. IE makes up part of the Windows experience, even if other browsers are better.

About the Opera not being GPL thing. My point had nothing to do with Windows. My point was that that is why Linux distros don't include it. Usually Linux distros only include GPL software unless something is necessary that doesn't have a GPL alternative.
Linux Distros do include Opera though. It is included in the Synaptic Package Manager along with a slew of other browsers. It is only Firefox that comes preinstalled. But you dont HAVE to use Firefox in order to get a new broswer installed and running to connect to the internet in Linux. You can install Oper os many others first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CntdwnToExtn View Post
ah, but you see there is an advantage with it installed......




it's installed and ready to use.
It can bring you aaaaaaany where you want, and has brought maaaaaaany people to mozilla, opera, and in the very slim case, netscape...which i really liked using in the early days
i'm sure my netscape navigator gold cd is laying around somewhere....
Umm No. Because of the fact that you dont NEED to connect to the internet to get the installers. I ahve all of the installers on my PC. A fresh install of either XP or Vista and i already have Firefox, Safari, Opera, SeaMonkey or any other browser that i want WITHOUT having to open IE.

Again you folks are taking what i said and twisting it. M$ does not make any money or gain anything from having IE. IE is installed yes. But the fact of the matter is IE is so intertwined with Windows that removing it causes many machines to crash. So how is it fair?

"But you cant connect to the internet"

Read this carefully. YOU DONT HAVE TO CONNECT TO THE INTERNET IN ORDER TO GET A INSTALLER.

Yes AOL pays money to OEM to include their software. But there is no way to say that M$ would LOSE money by having the IE, Firefox and/or Opera installer jsut sitting on the desktop. M$ wins either way. It is STILL WINDOWS that you paid for. It is still their OS you are using. So what if you dont use IE. It is free anyways. they make more from the searches on Live.com anyways compared to the amount of money IE brings in. Wait IE doesnt bring in any money. IT IS FREE..

So are you kind of understanding what i am saying? Yes there would ahve to be some work to be done to include the installer for Firefox and Opera to the Windows install. Yes some license issues would ahve to be worked out. But there is no way that Mozilla or Opera would deny it. Windows is still the most used OS out there. To deny them having their installer on the desktop at install would be the worst move they could make.

Plus not doing it is not competitive. Which also can be brought to the attention of the USA Govt saying that they are being a monopoly in this area. It can be done. It isnt that hard. **** if i can create a XP install CD with Opera already on there. I think M$ can figure out how to get 3 little installers in there.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

Well, we'll just have to disagree. It is obviously a competition, or MS wouldn't care about it. They obviously have something to gain or they wouldn't bother fighting about it. It would be easy for MS to put installers in Windows, but it would also be an act of them admitting that maybe people shouldn't use their product. It's an image thing. They don't want anyone thinking their product is crap. It would be like Wal-mart giving people bus rides to K-mart.

They are making money from IE; it's just not coming out of your pocket in a conventional way.
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:56 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

just wanted to add, IE 7 is actually free to all now, no WGA required
or so I hear

Internet Explorer: Home Page
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Old 12-19-2007, 07:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Opera whines about IE

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Originally Posted by atomic tofu View Post
just wanted to add, IE 7 is actually free to all now, no WGA required
or so I hear

Internet Explorer: Home Page
feck i was wondering why my VM of xp pro downloaded it!
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