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Old 01-19-2005, 08:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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gab00n - Ask people on the net which browser they prefer and you will lose by a landslide.
If you found some way to sort the responses so that you didn't just have a huge mass of mindless MS bashers who really don't know the difference they just are on the bandwagon and Firefox isn't MS...then you could post that as a valid argument.

But you can't.


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Old 01-19-2005, 09:50 AM   #12 (permalink)
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He said: roughly 200MB
i know he did and it is no where near 200mb, not even 100mb not even 50mb. 3 tabs in firefox at the moment is taking up little over 30mb. If he cant get his numbers right then what does that say for the rest of the review.

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Old 01-19-2005, 10:00 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Whatever Microsoft makes, is best.

Therefore, I'll stick to Internet Explorer.

Oh, and the people complaining about IE having several security flaws are simply FOOLS. Firefox has just as many flaws as IE... no more, no less, so whoever has been spreading around this rumor is just full of .. well, you know.
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Old 01-19-2005, 10:05 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 01-19-2005, 12:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
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RedRecon dont say stupid things like that. I'm not gonna butter it up, that was just not a smart comment and thats what starts flame wars and whatnot. You need to back up your opinion, these browser threads have already been beat to death, then dragged through a street, then beat again. Just straight up saying MS is better is dumb, almost everything comes down to preference and youre gonna start conflicts. Calling people fools makes a fool of you, because you dont back anything up, you just say it. The likelihood that IE and FF have the exact same amount of flaws is moronic (not considering that what is a "flaw" is debatable). Telling people they are full of Sh*t is in poor taste as well. You made no point whatsoever other than to voice your own prideful ignorance. Youre just gonna start a pointless war. Heres some advice-
"Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact"
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Old 01-19-2005, 02:53 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I'm hijacking your numbers, TheMajor...

Tabbed browsing
#1 This is nice, but FireFox's devs didn't pull this idea out of their golden arses. The idea of tabbed browsing has been around for a couple years at least, and FireFox isn't the only browser that implements tabs. IE doesn't use tabs, true, but the loss is minimal at best. Plus, since IE is an integrated browser, new windows cost me less in memory and processing.

Popup blocking
#2 IE can do this without any add-ons.Oh, and instead of just blatantly denying all pop-ups, IE actually reports to me what's going on in a convenient and neat little message line...Which is great because not everything that pops up I want erradicated (w SP2). Oh, and before anyone starts sceaming, yes, you can turn the messages off so you can stay in the realm of undisturbed browsing bliss.

Prevent scripts from doing various things
#3 You can turn off cookies...Oh, and you can turn off ActiveX (the major problem with IE) as well as secure just about everything else. Looking beyond the 4-position slider is a good start for people who think IE doesn't have options. Custom security all the way.

Site Navigation toolbar
#4 "Displays content from the link tags provided by a document, allowing one to navigate to various parts of a site." Kinda like the...navigation bar in IE? Or maybe, like Google? This is pretty much just a peeve thing and not critical. And I'm miffed on how this is really useful, since most sites don't comment their pages enough to really be useful if you haven't visited the site before.

#5 Don't need this. Seriously. The sidebar is worthless. Why would I want more crap stealing my desktop realestate, with more buttons and crap that I don't use normally anyway. Put it in the main menu, give me a shortcut key, and get the heck off the screen. This is like some kind of Apple-glory-days throwback.

Can add custom panels to sidebar
#6 Aside from the fact that the sidebar is virtually useless anyway, the ability to customize the browser in IE is already there, and with all the plug-in capability, scripting, and activeX, you can do just about anything with IE. Moot point.

More control over text zooming
#7 IE not only has default stepping sizes (-5 through +5, which by the way is W3C standard) but you can do an active zoom by holding down the ctrl key and using the scroll wheel on your mouse, which allows you to zoom dynamic text to any degree you need.

Can zoom any text, even that with fixed pixel sizes
#8 See 7's answer

Can select from multiple stylesheets provided by page
#9 Giving the viewers the ability to change style sheets is not new, and is usually programmed into the page, not the browser. The uses for this are minimal and often negative. Website devs want control, and we want to be able to make a page look the same across all platforms and machines. Giving the user the ability to dork around with stylesheets most often a bad idea and at best just a novelty.

Page info dialog
#10 encoding, MIME type, referrer, meta tags? This stuff is hidden for a reason. If the readers really want to see this stuff, they can just view the damn HTML and read it. Otherwise, that's not what it's there for. The users really shouldn't see the meta code at all. All the meta tags are for the browser to help searches and displaying data. No one needs to know the MIME type unless they're devs, and the same goes for the encoding too. 95% of users don't have a clude what the encoding and MIME types are for anyway. Why give them easy access to stuff that will just confuse them and potentially screw them up?

Detailed form/link/media info dialog
#11 Neat, yes, but not new and not something IE can't do. Want to know about a link or pic? Try right-clicking on it and viewing the properties. Gee...that was revolutionary...

Save plugins
#12 If you use the plugin for a page/site, then download it and install it. If you don't, don't. When you save a page to your HDD, you don't need the plugin to be saved too, since if your browser could view the document fine, the plugin is installed. What more are you going to do with it? Stare at the exe? If you need it for some reason, you can just download the plugin from the maker's website. Easy...And that's only if you don't know where to find your plugins in the first place.

#13 I find it funny that FireFox touts that it has themes. One of the biggest things people hate about Windows is the themes, so why in the hell would having themes for a browser be a plus? Not to mention that all that extra crap sucks up resources.

Bookmark window displays more detail
#14 Interesting, sometimes useful, but otherwise just a waste of processing and not really needed if you name your favorites correctly. That combined with the fact that if you mark it as a favorite, you should already know what the hell it is.

Bookmark keywords
#15 Ugh...moving on swiftly...

Bookmarks can be checked at a certain schedule
#16 In other words, keep yourself organized. Big concept. If you don't use it, get rid of it or move it to an "Old" bookmark folder.

Cookie Manager
#17 People had problems managing cookies in IE? Christ, I know what the problem is now...we've got stupid users. You can open the cookies folder (either within IE or through Explorer) and view their names, associated sources, double-click on them to see their information, delete them, move them, edit them, etc.

Can delete cookies individually
#18 Really? Delete cookies individually? You mean like opening the cookies folder on your drive and deleting the cookie? Honestly, the need for having some big suite for managing cookies is just overkill. 90% of the time you don't need to worry about them, and the rest of the time you're either mass-deleting them, or running spyware to remove the funny ones. Anyone with a need to nit-pick at their cookies is a special-case (or a basket case).

Block images from third party sites
#19 This is a FireFox plus? Did they miss the IE function for this? Or how about how every other major browser does this? This is just something to make the list look bigger, it's not a plus or an enhancement.

Can block images from certain sites
#20 I don't care, i can deal with it, something I would never configure anyways. This is a non-new feature, but a little easier in FireFox. Of course, you really kinda have to know what you're doing to make it effective, and the idea is pretty shaky since how does the browser know (outside of link text and file text) if the pic is good or bad? Instead of making a march against porn and stuff, they should have spent time making the spam and ads go away. (For those of you who don't know, editing your HOST file in Windows does pretty much the same thing as this.)

Download Manager
#21 This makes 2 features that I like about firefox, but I have been using IE forever so i can handle missing this. Okay, two things. One, I know the 2-download limit in IE is kinda annoying, but why do we need to clog up the bandwidth? Second, except for the dark ages of connectivity (dial-up modems) we don't really have a need to monitor download connections. Save, start download, forget. If it's a really big file, why would you want other downloads going on at the same time? If it's a little file, it's not such a big deal to restart a corrupted download or wait the 20 seconds it takes to get the file and start a new download. It's probably also possible to edit IE's settings to change the 2 download fix...I just haven't ever had the need so haven't bothered to look.

Can pause downloads
#22 Nice...but I've rarely ever had the need.

View Source [with tag colors]
#23 This is pointless and moronic. Okay, I'll admit that color-context coding is great...but only if you're coding!!! Use a god damn WYSIWYG if you need to see the code in that kind of detail. Otherwise, the view-source options are not meant to be used for editing. At best they're a way to grab some code to do dev work and find examples of how to do things. Why someone wasted their time with this, I don't know.

JavaScript Console
#24 Only really needed for Java devs and programmers...who should be using their damn IDE and not their browser. Not to mention that if you program the javascript correctly, no one will need to mess with it on the user end.

JavaScript Console displays script warnings
#25 Use a damn IDE!!!

JavaScript Debugger
#26 Use a damn IDE!!!

DOM Inspector
#27 Use a damn IDE!!!

DOM Inspector image capture
#28 Oh jesus christ in a can...They needed a function for this? If their UDI doesn't do it, PrtScn will.

Select text and perform search
#29 Neat idea, but kinda impractical. Cut, paste into search field, go. Or, if you have the Google plugin (like most people) you already have right-click search functionality. Select text, right click, choose 'Google Search' and be happy.

Can select custom search engine
#30 Moot point. Not new, not interesting, not very useful.

Can display search results in sidebar
#31 Ugh...

Supports any Sherlock search plugin
#32 I don't use a Macintosh computer There's a mass need for this?

Can manage saved passwords
#33 I hate saving passwords Look, the last place I want to save passwords, is with my browser. Not to mention that the last thing I want managing my passwords is an open-source 3rd-party client tool. And then there's the fact that if you have multiple users on the same box, this nifty password-manager is like instant security death.

Can fill-in complete forms automatically
#34 This is probably the number one thing that pisses me off about firefox or any other browser that does this. Seriously. Besides, if you notice, IE does the same only it gives you help applying repeat entries instead of just doing it without your consent. Plus IE gives me multiple-response dropdowns for recent entries, so I can just tab along and enter as needed. And really, how often to you people need a form to be all filled out ready to click send as soon as you come onto the page?

Master password encrypts info
#35 Since i don't want to store my password, why do i need this? Too bad the password manager doesn't manage the master password. But that brings up a good question. Can FireFox support the 128bit encryption standard?

Can disable tooltips
#36 Gee, what a nifty feature. WHO CARES You mean, like...going into IE's options and turning off the tooltips? More redundant filler...

Caret Browsing
#37 I have never needed this and will never use this. People...with too much time on their hands...

Type Ahead Find
#38 And how hard is it to Ctrl + F, type something, and press enter? CHSIBMS

View Selection Source
#39 Stupid. More examples of time wasted on something pointless when it could have been used on something more important.

Properties dialog lets you see info about various tags
#40 Give me a list of 10 people on earth that have used this more than once over the past week. That, and give me a flip'n reason why my browser needs to have a code dictionary for HTML? When I'm browsing a page, I don't see code jump out at me that I need to go look-up. If I'm developing, I use the code dictionary on my damn WYSIWYG. End of story.

View scripts and stylesheets directly
#41 Interesting, functional, but pointless overkill. If I want to browse, I just want to browse. If I want to dev, I'll use my WYSIWYG.

More font options
#42 As if every other major browser doesn't have font options. Also, this is pointless and detrimental, since websites are developed to be viewed a certain way. Once you start f-ing around with local settings to manip websites, you ruin the layout and work that the website author put into the site. And what kind of options do you really need? Aside from changing the font and the color, what more do you want? Do people really want to make the text of a site superscript, flashing, overspaced, etc.? This is one major problem for website devs. Just making the freaking browser display the page correctly, and let the devs do the visual stuff. If you don't like how my page is laid out or you don't like the fonts, screw you, it's my damn page. If my site is uneffective at being easy to use and read, that's my fault as a bad dev, not the browser's fault.

Can set minimum font sizes
#43 Read response in 42, put your glasses on, or just deal with it. Not all fonts on a page are supposed to be big. Second, not all sites need to be plastered with a low-line barrier. This is only marketable to old people or the legally blind...and it's not a selling point elsewise. Once again, neat, but practically worthless.

Mouse wheel options
#44 IE has this thing called the back and forth buttons In case people missed it, you can customize any button on any mouse/trackball to perform functions in IE. There are also tons of mouse functions that are part of Windows that IE integrates with and uses, that other browsers (*cough* firefox) have to develope integrations and plugins for. Wise man once said, instead of building new bridge, use one you have already.

Multiple profiles
#45 Wait wait wait...Okay, so after I have multiple profiles in Windows, why would I want multiple profiles in my browser? When I'm on, it's my profile. When someone else is on, it's their profile. I don't have two profiles...I don't have two browsing preferences that I can't decide between. The only thing I could see this being useful for is if you're developing some web code for some specific feature of a browser and want to test out multiple configurations...But who the hell does that on a regular basis?

May be installed quickly and anywhere
#46 IE's got FireFox beat for "installs quickly." It's already there. You got Windows, you got IE. Man, that was fast. Oh, and you can use IE or its derivative anywhere too. Palms, laptops, PDAs, PC's, cell phones, blah blah blah... IE doesn't work on Linux...but why in the hell would MS develope a product for Linux?

Can be easily uninstalled
#47 This is funny. Usually great programs have rough uninstall apps, since the demand just isn't there for uninstalls. Anyway, who cares? You hit uninstall, and it's gone. Good. I bet I still have to go dig around in my start-menu for folders left behind, and probably the registry too. Oh, and before anyone starts bytching about how IE can't be removed, THAT"S BECAUSE IT'S PART OF THE OS!!! IE is basically an extension of the Explorer file navigation system. It's an integrated part of the Windows environment that handles practically everything from the file Explorer to the desktop. Removing it would be like removing a leg from a racehorse.

May have multiple versions installed at once
#48 Oh cool, so you can have one up to date version installed, and then three other versions that you will never use. Once again, another tool that only plugin devs and legacy website devs care about and really don't need.

#49 Who cares? Okay, yeah, whatever...For the person who has eight different platforms in their home who expects them all to operate the same (mornically) this is great. Otherwise, I just want the browser to work on my PC. And since the global business standard for web applications and internet business communication is Microsoft and IE...I don't need any cross-platform func for work.

#50 As if XML (and it's accompanying technologies) wasn't enough already...

#51 Same as 50.

#52 Nice, but not limited to FireFox (or created by FireFox) in any way.

#53 who cares Good point.

#54 who cares Good point.

Properly handles MIME types
#55 Uh, the improper use of MIME types is because of the developer, not the browser. Most people think 'html/text' is the only one out there anyway.

Supports documents sent as application/xhtml+xml (XHTML)
#56 Good. Finally. At least FireFox can come up to the standard that IE has been at since the conception of XML. Better late than never...

Can render XML documents with styling
#57 XML does styling. If FireFox could meet the full standards for the technology, there wouldn't be a need for this mention.

Link Prefetching
#58 Never have performance problems with IE... ...and a function that has been pointed out several times to be a potential virus/spyware catcher. Plus, with connections today having enough trouble handling the pages we're on, I don't need the browser going after other stuff I may not want, too.

Displays ABBR/ACRONYM underlined and with titles in tooltips
#59 I don't care about this. In fact, I didn't even know these HTML tags existed. This is very funny. The idea of contextual abreviation and acronym look-up was first implemented by Microsoft (and can still be found in MS-Office). It was removed from IE because the public absolutely HATED it, not to mention that the functionality could be programmed into the pages with the ability for the devs to control how the look-ups behaved. In FireFox's efforts to out-do IE, they apparently didn't bother to look at some of the holes IE has fallen into in its past. That's dumb planning right there.

Supports blinking text
#60 I'm epileptic ROFL TheMajor! LOL... Oh, and thanks for FireFox for continuing to support this HTML feature which is widely considered to be one of the most annoying text features on the web. Congrats. Why the fk did this make the list of "need to do"?

CSS min/max-width/height
#61 IE does it...has done it...This is an improvement?

CSS position:fixed
#62 Not backwards compatible (a no-no for devs) and easily overshadowed by

good code work and the Absolute argument.

CSS display:table and related display types
#63 Please...someone spare us...

CSS generated content
#64 You mean like ASP, DCM, XML, DHTML, PHP, Perl, need I go on? Well at

least if FireFox couldn't invent or innovate the stuff, they can at least now support the stuff IE has worked with for years. About time, once again.

CSS2 selectors
#65 Ugh...I think this is like 1 thing they've hit on the W3C that shows they're looking ahead. It's just...not that big of a deal yet.

Supports a handful of CSS3 selectors
#66 Same as 65

Supports some extension CSS properties
#67 About time. Meet the compliance of IE.

XML Base
#68 I'm glad firefox is the only browser that takes advantage this feature. It must be widely used. Anyone in the dev slash web-app community knows that continuing to modify XML (and other HTML-origin technologies) will not keep them alive. The future of the web is not here.

FixPtr support
#69 Ugh...Come on...

Simple XLink support
#70 I am sick and tired of reading about these trivial features, MOVE ON!!! Seriously...I need the remote...

#71 Keep trying...

Built-in SOAP API
#72 About time...*sigh*

PNG alpha transparency
#73 Great. Finally. You support one of the biggest problems with PNG files...Now if FireFox could only get its act together with Flash and we'll be okay...

MNG image support
#74 There's a need for this crap?

Supports 'favicons' in any image format
#75 Honestly this is nitpicking. The image files, even in bmp, are so small they're practically harmless.

Display icons in tabs and address bar
#76 This will only slow down the browser. Not to mention annoying. This is like for those people who need tons of lights on their cell phones going off all the time. Pointless, bogging, and really not needed.

Available for more languages/locales
#77 I am an ignorant, white american that only speaks one language. IE supports any language Windows does. If that language isn't supported by Windows, I'd be willing to bet a user using Windows won't care. Besides, out of the 12-some standard languages of the world, and the 30-some languages supported by Windows and IE...What more do we need? (Oh, and there are tons more language packs that can be downloaded for Windows, and once in Windows they work for IE.)

Support for standard event handling
#78 My OS and my server handle the events, thank you very much.

Support for additional DOM0/DOM1/Core features
#79 If FireFox fully supported the MS products businesses associate with, and the programming languages they're written in, there wouldn't be a need for concerns about 79 though 84.

DOM2 namespace handling
DOM2 Style interfaces
DOM2 TreeWalker interface
DOM2 Range interface
DOM3 XPath interface

Can set size of printed output
#85 Try Page-Setup some time.

Can bookmark groups of pages (in tabs)
#86 Not really useful. Neat, but not really useful.

Can set multiple pages as a home page.
#87 This feature sounds like something the mozilla developers thought up one day because they were bored with making a slow browser That, and why would you want more than one home page? The whole purpose of a

home page is to have a single start point for your browser session. Now I've got to choose or wade through multiple home pages? Give me a break.

Can search bookmarks
#88 Whoop-dee-doo. Organize your bookmarks and you won't have to! What a concept.

Easily create and add custom components
#89 How many more components am I going to need, damn. One more reason why FireFox hasn't caught on to the general masses...It's way too geared towards knowledgeable PC users. Features like this scare people, not to mention that this is like a Linux campaign...

Supports finger protocol
#90 Nice try at leading the innovation...but just didn't go right. Should have done some research first. Finger-Protocols are cool...but hard catching on and it would be better to just comply with the standard than develop new tech for this.

Supports data: URLs
#91 Data URLs? this has potential exploits written all over it. Another one of the things spyware/virus watchers complain about. From the record so far, FireFox has taken the bait on a lot of the same things IE is bashed for. This is not looking good...

HTTP Pipelining
#92 HTTP is fast becoming little more than an archaic necissary evil. Pipelining ain't fixing that.

Supports JavaScript getters/setters
#93 "objects that invoke code when retreived or modified" (direct quote) -- sounds like a virus Love it. "The more secure than IE Firefox" now with the ability for javascript spyware backdoor capability! Oh yeah! Everyone sing the Security Song together!

JavaScript supports strict error checking
#94 Really? No kidding.

Easily accessible preferences file
#95 IE stores my preferences in a place that I couldn't care less about. I configure my preferences from (gasp) the preferences dialog within the browser. Why do I care where IE puts that file or what it stores it as? I don't give a rat's behind about any of that. Just give me the check boxes and options and leave me in peace. I don't need to go all uber-geek with my preferences.

Preferences can be moved around easily
#96 Copy the IE prefs file, move it to new PC, and yer done. But this is just overkill really, since all security and preferences for a browser on a new machine should be gone over by hand in good practice. Trusting your preferences and security to the integrity of a transfer like this is risky at best.

Various security related features
#97 Really? Various security features, huh? Boy, for a product that touts so much advancement over IE in security, this is the worst rebutle.

Supports the jar protocol
#98 This is why I have scanners and AV apps. This is also why I don't save risky websites. Duh.

Open Source
#99 This is an argument not suitable for this thread, and it doesn't help FireFox over IE. Anyway, what's the real need for open-source web browsers? Open source apps, okay, but the browser? What, are you going to tweak the browser so it handles XML in a way different from the standard? Or maybe you'll use the open-source to fix FireFox so it meets the standard in a timely manner? (Don't forget about the IE SDK, either. It may not be open source, but for a for-profit application, that's what you get.)

#100 Show me a browser application without bugs, and I'll give you the keys to my car.

Giant lizards are cool
#101 Oh, this just settles the argument.

I think we're finished here.

Don\'t hate the player...Hate the game...
ShoobieRat is offline  
Old 01-19-2005, 04:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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ok, this is friggin ridiculous, it seems to be another thread that will eventually (if it already hasn't cough) turn into a flaming contest......so use whatever browser you want people, but this thread is now closed......

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