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Old 04-10-2009, 10:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Umm AM3 version 940????

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Originally Posted by zmatt View Post
agreed, if you really want DDR3 that badly then instead of getting all bent out of shape over it, just go i7
you still have to pay more for the boards and CPU's to go i7

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmatt View Post
I'm fairly certain that the AM3 boards are only dual channel anyways so their memory bandwidth will be subpar for DDR3.
Triple channel hardly does anything for i7's over dual channel, even in things like WinRAR
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Umm AM3 version 940????

The x58 motherboards aren't that expensive when you consider they support both sli and crossfire.

There are 780a am2+ motherboards that cost nearly as much as comprable x58.
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Old 04-11-2009, 05:05 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Umm AM3 version 940????

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Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
you still have to pay more for the boards and CPU's to go i7

Triple channel hardly does anything for i7's over dual channel, even in things like WinRAR
I didn't deny it would be expensive, but the AM3 DDR3 support is meh at best. The speed cap is pretty low and its only dual channel. The improvement over DDR2 is negligible. So if you want DDR3 performance that actually makes a difference then yes you would need an i7 rig.

AMD still has some bugs they need to iron out. I don't know if it is an IMC problem or a NB problem. If it's with the NB then we should see better NBs coming sooner or later that bring real DDR3 performance too the table.

But I still think cost-wise its best for him to get his AM3 chip with an AM2+ mobo. That way he can upgrade when the DDR3 support catches up and he can save money now.
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Old 04-11-2009, 07:27 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Umm AM3 version 940????

That looks like a nice little build....and hopefully you get a D0 stepping...finally a new gen CPU that clocks decently.
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Old 04-11-2009, 08:02 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Puddle Jumper View Post
The x58 motherboards aren't that expensive when you consider they support both sli and crossfire.
It won't matter if you don't intend to use both SLI and crossfire.

Though, if you wanted to use two Nvidia GPU's, you could just get a 295. Then it wouldn't matter if the board used a crossfire-only chipset.

If you're not intending to spend top dollar to have the absolute best, then
a) you probably won't be getting 4 GPU's from either ATI or Nvidia.
b) you would probably go with a Core 2 or Phenom II system (a lot of people won't buy a quad, because they don't think they'll find it useful)

Quote:
There are 780a am2+ motherboards that cost nearly as much as comprable x58.
Yes, I don't know why they cost that much, but I think they're more expensive than they should be. 790GX boards can be had for ~$100-$110.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmatt View Post
I didn't deny it would be expensive, but the AM3 DDR3 support is meh at best. The speed cap is pretty low and its only dual channel.
I'm pretty sure AMD gave board makers have the option of having a higher RAM divider for AM3.

Besides, triple channel isn't even useful to i7. From what I've seen, it gets 0-2.5% performance increase compared to dual channel.
So if you did want to go for an i7 system, you could easily just use 2 or 4 sticks of DDR3, instead of 3 or 6, and you wouldn't notice the difference.

Quote:
The improvement over DDR2 is negligible.
I agree with this though. The performance increase from DDR2 to DDR3 on AM3 chips is about ~5%, and the prices of DDR3 still don't make it worth it.
Plus, AM2+ 790GX boards are widely available and cheap.

Quote:
So if you want DDR3 performance that actually makes a difference then yes you would need an i7 rig.
Actually, I think the reason i7's don't support DDR2, is because of the timing of the release, along with the fact that it is intel's first IMC.
It wouldn't make sense for them to spend extra R&D on their completely new IMC to add DDR2 support, when DDR2 was on the way to being replaced by DDR3.

Quote:
AMD still has some bugs they need to iron out.
AFAIK there's only one bug with AMD's DDR3 support, and it's nothing to do with the hardware; it's a software issue which won't allow it to work with more than one DDR3 DIMM per channel. That will be fixed with a BIOS upgrade (if it hasn't already). And this fix isn't something that will degrade performance.

Quote:
But I still think cost-wise its best for him to get his AM3 chip with an AM2+ mobo. That way he can upgrade when the DDR3 support catches up and he can save money now.
Yes, I agree with this. While DDR3 is getting closer to DDR2 prices, it isn't there yet. And the choice of AM3 boards isn't that great yet either.

I've got no plans to upgrade from my AM2+ board, as long as AM3 chips still work in it, and the memory bandwidth and latency is fast enough to not bottleneck it (I'm running 8GB DDR2-1066 @ 5-5-5-15)
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:15 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Umm AM3 version 940????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
It won't matter if you don't intend to use both SLI and crossfire.

Though, if you wanted to use two Nvidia GPU's, you could just get a 295. Then it wouldn't matter if the board used a crossfire-only chipset.
I'm not a fan of multi gpu cards personally, but many are. It's a preference thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
If you're not intending to spend top dollar to have the absolute best, then
a) you probably won't be getting 4 GPU's from either ATI or Nvidia.
b) you would probably go with a Core 2 or Phenom II system (a lot of people won't buy a quad, because they don't think they'll find it useful)
I dunno, you can get quads cheap. I helped a friend build a quad system and she was surprised how cheap they were and that was this time last year.

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Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
Yes, I don't know why they cost that much, but I think they're more expensive than they should be. 790GX boards can be had for ~$100-$110.
Sometimes that happens. You can get some really sweet p45s for $100 also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
I'm pretty sure AMD gave board makers have the option of having a higher RAM divider for AM3.
Maybe that's why some of their boards cost so much? It's just speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
Besides, triple channel isn't even useful to i7. From what I've seen, it gets 0-2.5% performance increase compared to dual channel.
So if you did want to go for an i7 system, you could easily just use 2 or 4 sticks of DDR3, instead of 3 or 6, and you wouldn't notice the difference.
here are other things that bottleneck a pc that will dampen the effect of high memory bandwidth. Take for example hard drives. Everything except hard drives are a magnitude or more faster than they were in 2005. Hard drives hasn't changed much. get some SSD's and your improvement in performance will probably be on several levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
I agree with this though. The performance increase from DDR2 to DDR3 on AM3 chips is about ~5%, and the prices of DDR3 still don't make it worth it.
Plus, AM2+ 790GX boards are widely available and cheap.
So like I said, go AM2+. It's the most cost effective way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
Actually, I think the reason i7's don't support DDR2, is because of the timing of the release, along with the fact that it is intel's first IMC.
It wouldn't make sense for them to spend extra R&D on their completely new IMC to add DDR2 support, when DDR2 was on the way to being replaced by DDR3.
It's possible. I don't think there is any hard evidence to go either way, but I can see it happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
AFAIK there's only one bug with AMD's DDR3 support, and it's nothing to do with the hardware; it's a software issue which won't allow it to work with more than one DDR3 DIMM per channel. That will be fixed with a BIOS upgrade (if it hasn't already). And this fix isn't something that will degrade performance.
Great! So we shoudl see AM3 mobos start rocking 6 gigs of 1666mhz tri-channel then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
Yes, I agree with this. While DDR3 is getting closer to DDR2 prices, it isn't there yet. And the choice of AM3 boards isn't that great yet either.
I feel we are in one of those situations where we are agreeing with each other but we think we are arguing. We have told the OP what the best course of action is. I think this thread has served its purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
I've got no plans to upgrade from my AM2+ board, as long as AM3 chips still work in it, and the memory bandwidth and latency is fast enough to not bottleneck it (I'm running 8GB DDR2-1066 @ 5-5-5-15)
I'm rocking 4gigs of 1100mhz at 4-5-4-15 and I am loving it.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:32 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Umm AM3 version 940????

well

zmatt I know what you're saying but it would be a little redundant getting to me getting an x3 720 and still going AM2+, the review on the board I'm considering use the 720 and the number looks plenty good IMO, logically speaking you point in impeccable, I just tend to be stubborn :P

I would like to go AM3 but the difference is so negligible that I'll more than likely be fine with AM2+,

Here's what I'm looking at for AM3 as of now:

Newegg.com - Antec P182 Gun Metal Black 0.8mm cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Computer Cases

Newegg.com - MSI 790FX-GD70 AM3 AMD 790FX ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

Newegg.com - XFX HD-489A-ZDEC Radeon HD 4890 Xtreme 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards

Newegg.com - CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply - Power Supplies

Newegg.com - AMD Phenom II X3 720 2.8GHz 3 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 95W Triple-Core Black Processor - Processors - Desktops

Newegg.com - OCZ Reaper HPC 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

Newegg.com - SAMSUNG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD+R DL 22X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA 22X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe - CD / DVD Burners

Newegg.com - Sunbeam CR-CCTF 120 mm Core-Contact Freezer CPU Cooler W/TX-2 - CPU Fans & Heatsinks

that comes out to ~ $974 + shipping

if I just go ahead and get a Phenom II 940 then it'll be all the above with these changes:

Newegg.com - AMD Phenom II X4 940 Deneb 3.0GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM2+ 125W Quad-Core Black Edition Processor - Processors - Desktops

Newegg.com - ASUS M4A79 Deluxe AM2+/AM2 AMD 790FX ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

Newegg.com - OCZ Reaper HPC 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

it think that total would be ~$1086 + shipping

I am a firm believer in a good motherboard after dealing with my ECS craptastic board

I'm pretty much sold on ATI (if I go AMD) this time around I've been doing nVidia for a while, figured I'll take a change, and I knew the "Xtreme" 4890 is only a 25 MHz OC but I don't mind the extra $15 for the name

For the record my i7 build would be as follows:

Newegg.com - COOLER MASTER COSMOS 1000 RC-1000-KSN1-GP Black/ Silver Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Computer Cases

Newegg.com - ASUS P6T Deluxe/OC Palm LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards

Newegg.com - CORSAIR CMPSU-850TX 850W ATX12V 2.2 / EPS12V 2.91 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply - Power Supplies

Newegg.com - Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz 4 x 256KB L2 Cache 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops

Newegg.com - OCZ XMP Ready Series 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Triple Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

Newegg.com - SAMSUNG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD+R DL 22X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA 22X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe - CD / DVD Burners

Newegg.com - COOLER MASTER R4-S2S-124K-GP 120mm Case Fan - Case Fans

Newegg.com - EVGA 896-P3-1171-AR GeForce GTX 275 Superclocked Edition 896MB 448-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards

I would go with the GTX in this simply because it does better on the synthetics and that's where the i7 would really rape AMD

This comes out to slightly under $1400, and I'm very firmly planted on this build should I go i7

with that said,

the reality is that I do plan on xFire for the 4890 and as long as the my set up can handle it and not bottleneck me I wouldn't see a need for anything more

I know the AM3 set up isn't entirely a "noticeable" increase in performance over just settling on AM2+ but I think I'd be just fine with the x3 720 and may not even need to consider the 945 (unless I land a sweet deal in the future)

EDIT: I don't want this to be focused on a build, be if there issues will be BIOS fixes then from what I'm reading and looking up all I have to do is keep my BIOS in good shape and update often as I can (which is maintenance anyways) there shouldn't be any formidable issues
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:35 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Umm AM3 version 940????

Or we could just say, again, that for the extra couple hundred bucks, he'd have a much faster machine?

it comes down to the fact that he's shelling out a LOT of money for a machine. So if he can spend an extra couple hundred bucks and get something that will be faster, whatever. Triple channel DDR3 does work better than double channel DDR3 on the AM3 boards, and if he's so hung up on DDR3, then i7 is the way to go. Facts are facts, the i7 is the fastest processor on the market. If he went with Salty's build and spent maybe 150 bucks more, he'd have it.

I think it's a no brainer.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:52 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Umm AM3 version 940????

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Or we could just say, again, that for the extra couple hundred bucks, he'd have a much faster machine?

it comes down to the fact that he's shelling out a LOT of money for a machine. So if he can spend an extra couple hundred bucks and get something that will be faster, whatever. Triple channel DDR3 does work better than double channel DDR3 on the AM3 boards, and if he's so hung up on DDR3, then i7 is the way to go. Facts are facts, the i7 is the fastest processor on the market. If he went with Salty's build and spent maybe 150 bucks more, he'd have it.

I think it's a no brainer.
I agree. I think we have done all we can. In the end its up to the OP to take our advice. We are almost unanimous here (which is a rarity) so that has to be worth something.


On a related matter, with prices the way they are i would never recommend the GTX275. its a solution looking for a problem. I know this has been beaten to death, but not everyone was there. the 4890 is far superior and costs a bit less.
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