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Old 10-02-2009, 06:23 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Surge Protectors

A topic some would know about but my question is what is the best surge protector resposnes time i just got a Jackson brand one with a <20ns repones time now what is the best rembering every pc guy should have a surge proctetor
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Old 10-02-2009, 07:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Surge Protectors

I think its ' < 1ns '.

I know my 6 outlet Belkin one is.
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Surge Protectors

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Originally Posted by CrazyMan View Post
A topic some would know about but my question is what is the best surge protector resposnes time i just got a Jackson brand one with a <20ns repones time ...
All protectors have < 1ns response times depending on where you measure it. If measures down at the far end of those 2 inch leads, the response increases signficantly. But why trying to confuse the consumer, some with forget to mention that part.

Reponse times mean nothing. First you should answer a fundamental question. What does a protector do? Not provide protection. What does it actually do to provide surge protection? Once we get past that part, then we can move on to which spec numbers matter.

A little hint for starters. The effective surge protector does the same thing that Ben Franklin did in 1752. What does the effective protector do? Those willing to answer even if wrong learn from that mistakes. Response time is not relevant. You don't learn if you fear to make a mistake. What does that protector do?
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Old 10-02-2009, 09:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by westom View Post
All protectors have < 1ns response times depending on where you measure it. If measures down at the far end of those 2 inch leads, the response increases signficantly. But why trying to confuse the consumer, some with forget to mention that part.

Reponse times mean nothing. First you should answer a fundamental question. What does a protector do? Not provide protection. What does it actually do to provide surge protection? Once we get past that part, then we can move on to which spec numbers matter.

A little hint for starters. The effective surge protector does the same thing that Ben Franklin did in 1752. What does the effective protector do? Those willing to answer even if wrong learn from that mistakes. Response time is not relevant. You don't learn if you fear to make a mistake. What does that protector do?
The protector stops the surge/spike from travelling to the computer, and most decent protectors come with a warranty of something like $50,000 on all items attatched to the board should it fail to protect it.
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Old 10-03-2009, 02:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by zedman3d View Post
The protector stops the surge/spike from travelling to the computer, and most decent protectors come with a warranty of something like $50,000 on all items attached to the board should it fail to protect it.
So how does that little 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? How do a few hundred joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?

What you have posted is the myth that promoted ineffective and highly profitable protectors. Then we learn from professionals. For example, the NIST (US Government research agency):
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

Or an IEEE Red Book (Standard 141) :
> In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the process of interception
> of lightning produced surges, diverting them to ground,

Or Sun Microsystems Planning Guide for the Server Room:
> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans
> for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths
> for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed into
> the system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the
> data center. These should divert the power of the surge by providing a
> path to ground for the surge energy.

Southwest Bell on Surge protection:
> Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...
> Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to protect downstream equipment.
> Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds of the
> services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still enter a
> premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to pass the
> excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the services
> surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into and through
> protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the process. ...
> Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together there are
> no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of the grounds
> cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional paths to ground
> through the premise prevents the excess energy from seeking out any
> additional grounds through that premise and the electronic equipment within.
> As such, the excess energy remains in the ground system until dissipated,
> sparing the protected equipment from damage. ...
> By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best protection.
> When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the service entrance,
> it will provide a solid first line of defense against surges which enter from the
> power company’s service entrance feed.

Where does even one technically informed source stop or absorb a surge or spike? That is the myth that promotes ineffective plug-in protectors. What is required in every citation? A short connection to earth ground. What plug-in protector makes a short connection to earth OR even discusses the concept? None. Why? No plug-in protector even claims surge protection in their specs.

What does GM do when their cars are inferior? They hype a big warranty. That $50,000 surge protector warranty means the protector does not even claim surge protection. Read the fine print. The warranty is so chock full of exemptions as to never be honored. Quotes from others citing 100% frustration are just as numerous. But then anyone with basic free market knowledge knows the product with the biggest warranty is typically the worst.

zedman3d has simply posted what an overwhelming majority believe. They believe what they were told to believe. Never once even asked questions or asked for the always required numbers. Where is the manufacturer spec that claims surge protection? Not a single plug-in protector claims surge protection in numbers. But then every above citation says why? No earthing means no effective protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

And if that is not enough, Dr Martzloff describes what we engineer have seen plug-in protectors do:
> Conclusion:
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable
> difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge
> protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

Too close to the appliance and too far from earth ground. So the plug-in protector earthed that surge destructively through adjacent appliances. We engineers saw plug-in protector do the same thing. No - an overwhelming majority do not know any of this. Propaganda works when the layman never asks simple questions and routinely ignores the numbers. No numbers means a recommendation is probably bogus.

Where does surge energy go? The OP asked about something silly - response time. His first question should have asked where hundreds of thousands of joules get harmlessly dissipated. Only the naive believe plug-in protectors will magically make that energy disappear. Only fools believe a warranty implies quality. Only the inquisitive notice that plug-in protectors claim no surge protection in their specs. Only responsible sources understand what provides surge protection - earth ground.
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Old 10-03-2009, 03:32 AM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Surge Protectors

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
zedman3d has simply posted what an overwhelming majority believe. They believe what they were told to believe.
How did i? I said that the protector stops the surge/spike from travelling to the computer. And you quoted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.
Diverting to the ground IS STOPPING IT FROM GOING TO YOURE PC/ELECTRICALS. You cant destroy or create energy, you can transform it and move it. I dont see how what i said was wrong. Plus its not just lightning strikes that the protectors guard against, under voltage is also something a decent protector should stop as well as spikes.

PS: Why does it sound like you are talking to the jury at a murder case?
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Old 10-03-2009, 07:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Surge Protectors

Westom, while I apreciate your knowledge in the area you should think about what you say and how it sounds before you say it. We don't stand for insulting other members.
You are the first person to mention lightning here and are you sure it's "surge protection" that surge protectors don't claim or is it "lightning protection"? Having said that I would like to know what you recommend, if anything, and I'm sure the OP would like that too.
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Old 10-04-2009, 02:52 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zedman3d View Post
PS: Why does it sound like you are talking to the jury at a murder case?
I am talking technical. Nothing more. Nothing is intended insulting, condescending, or attacking. Everything is blunt honest and technical. Blunt especially because we are confronting a widely believed and promoted lie.

For example, ineffective protectors are always recommended because a majority are told what to believe - and do so. It is a question that everyone should have asked. "How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not?" The discussion of surge protectors without discussing how scams get promoted is almost impossible. Surge protection routinely becomes a discussion of knowledge based on feeling verses knowledge based in facts and numbers. Many if not most of us (a principle even defined in Hitler’s Mein Kamp) routinely believe the first thing we are told. Then deny the reality that arrives later. Surge protection is a discussion of how so many think.

Accurately noted: diverting energy to earth is what the effective protector does. But another said Belkin. Belkin does not divert energy to earth for a long list of engineering reasons - starting with no dedicated earthing wire. To divert to earth means low impedance. That means a connection to earth must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp wire bends, separated from other non-grounding wires, not inside metallic conduit, etc. Just more reasons why a Belkin (and equivalent devices) is not earthed - does not provide effective protection. And why it is promoted to stop - absorb - surges. Not divert energy harmlessly to earth. A Belkin does not do that and does not claim to do that. Many buy a Belkin to 'stop' surges.

No protector stops surges. Effective protectors conduct surges. Divert, connect, clamp, bond, shunt - the word stop does not apply. But the Belkin claims (in sales brochures) to stop and absorb surges. An overwhelming majority automatically believe it.

Try it sometime. Ask individuals what a protector does. The ambiguous answer discusses stopping and absorbing surges. Somehow sucking up that energy so that a surge does not exist. You have accurately noted that is not true. And yet that is what an overwhelming majority will claim only because that is what they were told to believe.

Again, there is no way to accurately discuss what a protector does without discussing why the myth is so popular. That makes some people angry when they cannot emotionally admit what was a popular belief is also a myth – that they fell for a scam. Companies such as Belkin and Monster Cable have quite a profitable scam going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmote View Post
You are the first person to mention lightning here and are you sure it's "surge protection" that surge protectors don't claim or is it "lightning protection"?
Surge protection is lightning protection. All appliances contain significant protection that makes lesser transients irrelevant. We install surge protection for lightning so that protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. Some numbers. Surge protection is installed for the rare and potentially destructive surge that occurs maybe once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even within each town due to geology and other factors.

Effective protectors are rated to earth direct lightning strikes and remain functional. View engineering data sheets. Numbers are based on the standard 8/20 microsecond waveform – a waveform only associated with lightning. Surge protector spec numbers are based on what protectors are designed for - lightning protection.

Any protector that provides effective lightning protection also makes other lesser surges irrelevant. We install one effective protector so that nobody knew a direct lightning strike existed. Even the protector must remain functional. Obvious by reading the ampere numbers on an effective protector such as the $50 Cutler-Hammer protector sold in Lowes.

Again, a post not based in numbers is a lie. The numbers. The average lightning strike is 20,000 amperes. So a minimally acceptable ‘whole house’ protector is about 50,000 amperes. That surge (that is also earthed by the other system – primary surge protection – must be well below what the protector is rated for. But again, why do we install surge protection? So that direct lightning strikes do not overwhelm protection already inside all appliances.
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:25 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Surge Protectors

Mein Kampf ? Lol

Lighning is lightning. A surge protector will help against spikes / surges but lightning... well, is lightning. Surge protectors can help but are not a guarantee against Mother Nature, Mr. Westom.
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Old 10-04-2009, 05:53 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Surge Protectors

Okay so lightning will ruin youre pc regardless, but it just so happens that lightning is probably the least common cause of surges... Most spikes and such are caused by whats already inside the home...
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