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Old 08-22-2003, 04:48 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally posted by mj_1903
Is it not funny that the company the designed the PC now produces the chips for the company that they used to compete head on with?

Note: I have seen no information suggesting a partnership between IBM and Apple, but I will take you at your word and comment accordingly. Please (for my personal edification) provide furthur information as I was, apparently, unaware of this. Now on to my comments.......

That would just be smart business on IBMs part. because truthfully it used to be IBM vs Intel vs Apple. Intel and IBM were only collusional because of Windows but to my knowledge were never "partners". It actually doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. IBM (which my father worked for as a Computer Engineer prior to moving to AT&T) has been working diligently over the last several years to keep itself solvent in the Information Technology arena. It would seem that IBM adopted the "My enemies enemy is my friend" and picked the company that would compliment it.

It used to be IBM & Intel vs. Apple. Now its IBM & Apple vs. Intel. Sad but true.

Actually it would be more correct to say IBM & Apple vs Intel & AMD.

Oh btw, MAC is an acroynm for Media Access Control...and is generally associated with the ethernet address of a computer.

Actually a MAC address is not "generally associated with the ethernet address of a computer". A MAC addres is to uniquely identify each node on a network.

"The term Ethernet refers to the family of local-area network (LAN) products covered by the IEEE 802.3 standard that defines what is commonly known as the CSMA/CD protocol. Three data rates are currently defined for operation over optical fiber and twisted-pair cables:

10 Mbps—10Base-T Ethernet
100 Mbps—Fast Ethernet
1000 Mbps—Gigabit Ethernet

10-Gigabit Ethernet is under development and will likely be published as the IEEE 802.3ae supplement to the IEEE 802.3 base standard in late 2001 or early 2002. "

Being that there are networks that do not use these standards (although rather out of date) and nodes on a network can be any network compatable device and not restricted to computers, per sey, then your statement is imprecise. Just saving you some embarasement down the road..

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Old 08-22-2003, 04:56 AM   #62 (permalink)
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"Note: I have seen no information suggesting a partnership between IBM and Apple, but I will take you at your word and comment accordingly. Please (for my personal edification) provide furthur information as I was, apparently, unaware of this. Now on to my comments......."

At this time Apple and IBM are in colloboration to produce the PPC 970 (using the Power4 core and Apple's designed FSB + IBM's altivec) and IBM are also producing Apple's system bus. They have been in colloboration now for 3 1/2 years on the design of the chips (Apple was responsible entirely for the system bus, IBM moreso for the PPC 970 but with Apple's help to make it totally backwards compatible).

I think the colloboration is similar to AMD having Opeteron's produced by IBM but on a more technical level as well.

"That would just be smart business on IBMs part. because truthfully it used to be IBM vs Intel vs Apple. Intel and IBM were only collusional because of Windows but to my knowledge were never "partners". It actually doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. IBM (which my father worked for as a Computer Engineer prior to moving to AT&T) has been working diligently over the last several years to keep itself solvent in the Information Technology arena. It would seem that IBM adopted the "My enemies enemy is my friend" and picked the company that would compliment it."

I agree with you there...it was a vast oversimplification.

"Actually it would be more correct to say IBM & Apple vs Intel & AMD."

Sadly to be even more correct it would be IBM & Apple vs. Intel/AMD and Dell, and HP-Compaq, and Sony, etc.

"Actually a MAC address is not "generally associated with the ethernet address of a computer". A MAC addres is to uniquely identify each node on a network."

Oh yes, that was my point....But generally when you hear it its referring to Ethernet connections. It also applies to Airport, Firewire, Bluetooth, Serial or many other TCP/IP connections (many are Mac OS X only). Again, a drastic oversimplification.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:17 AM   #63 (permalink)
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well with the Windows Emulator, you said it is because of demand that they made it; well wouldn't you prefer to be able to run Windows AND Mac programs on one computer, instead of just Windows? maybe the Mac is a more capable system after all.

we have got so many game shows and stuff over here - i barely watch them, BUT there are sooo many of them that use MACs.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:33 AM   #64 (permalink)
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apokalipse,it doesn't matter to me what this guy is trying to say or is saying against me. i'm not posting here to change his opinion. i have mine and he has an opinion of his own. and i'm sure you have your own too. I'm not trying to combat him,..its useless to do that to a guy who doesn't understand that other people have other views on the topic.its just funny how he seems to take it personally that you don't see things the way he does or you don't agree with him. tell him something,...and he counters your statement point by point. FYI...i like apple computers,..as i have stated in previous threads...but its just amazing how this guy has actually made it his personal agenda or mission to counter every statement made against apple

kudos to you apokalipse,..you've made a nice thread here.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:56 AM   #65 (permalink)
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"apokalipse,it doesn't matter to me what this guy is trying to say or is saying against me. i'm not posting here to change his opinion. i have mine and he has an opinion of his own. and i'm sure you have your own too. I'm not trying to combat him,..its useless to do that to a guy who doesn't understand that other people have other views on the topic.its just funny how he seems to take it personally that you don't see things the way he does or you don't agree with him. tell him something,...and he counters your statement point by point. FYI...i like apple computers,..as i have stated in previous threads...but its just amazing how this guy has actually made it his personal agenda to counter every statement made against apple. kudos to you apokalipse,..you've made a nice thread here."

You know...I find that highly offensive. Do you know me? No. Do you know how many people I interact with a day? No. Do you know how many people I attempt to make their opinion of how something should be into reality everyday? No.

Its also funny how quickly you forget what I have been saying. I did state that Apple will never increase their marketshare past this point. I did say that you are entitled to your own opinion and that it was never my agenda to change it.

And yes, I will counter statements that are incorrect...thats what stopping the spread of FUD is about. Its my prerogative as a Mac user, Apple shareholder and Mac programmer to make sure that Apple's past is erased and does not come back to haunt it. I am a switcher for that reason.

Here is a little story. Back when I worked at BTLooksmart in Sydney, I had to test the webpages on an iMac computer. I despised that machine. I would make a page perfect in IE 5 (state of the art at the time) and Netscape 4 and then I would walk to the Mac and fire up IE on it. Boom, my webpage was a mess...and that is if IE actually loaded without the machine crashing.

The slogan "It just works" did not apply back in those days. I hated working with Macs...even Win ME was better than OS 9 and before. The hardware was credible...nothing to write home about in the desktops and possibly something to brag about in the laptops. Seriously, who liked the iBook first generation? (Yes, I offended a ton of Mac users saying that).

I moved to OS X because it provided a solution to the Windows/Linux hegemony. I built my 1Ghz Athlon back in the days from scratch to run Debian Linux as my programming rig...because Win 98 did not suffice. I moved back to Win2k because it worked...but then I had had enough of it crashing too frequently, or the virii (yes I know how to protect a machine) or VC++ and MFC.

Yes I play games...but I play it on that PC or my GameCube of Playstation 2. But I don't enjoy virii, I don't enjoy big brother, I don't enjoy big brother's license, Linux does not get out of my way enough to do solid work and Mac OS X just works.

Tomorrow I may wake up to find Microsoft Windows running nicely enough for me to warrant switching back and I will have no hesitancy doing it...whichever is the better platform for my needs is what I will use. It just so happens that at this time Mac OS X and the G4/5 are the best platform for what I do.
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Old 08-22-2003, 06:02 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I'm not gonna run quotes on this one.. I'm too tired..

As I have stated MANY times.. In a video or graphical editing environment... Generally speaking... Macs are superior to X86 based PCs.. I have recently found that many of the highest end video editors used by movie studios for cinematic releases are Windows based. That was a bit of a surprise for me..

I am sure that there are many people that you know, since you seem to work in a Mac environment, that would love to use the software that they are familiar with on thier home X86 based PCs. Just as, I am sure that there are people that purchased a Mac and love to run the windows software that they are familiar with through a windows emulator.

If you will go back and look at my posts... For the most part, except where my personal preference was stated, I have never said that one was better than the other. I HAVE however stated that each has it's place. The G5 may have more speed than an Intel or AMD based system, but speed is not the only consideration when purchasing a computer. It has been my experience that Apple computers were alot more expensive to repair and upgrade potential was non existant. If this has changed with the G4 and G5 then DAMN STRAIGHT.. It's about time.. That point alone has cost them many customers. It has also been my experience that it was much harder to find affordable software for a Mac that accomplished what an individual needed to do, and even at that.. A Mac user was at the mercy of the one, maybe two, Mac dealers that were nearby. Variety being the spice of life, that last point left a very bland taste in many peoples mouths. Again, if this has changed Fantastic... again.. It's about time..


However, I will guarantee you this. If Intel or AMD start feeling pressure because the Mac PCs are running faster.... Their speed will jump.. Complacency in the marketplace is one of the biggest obstacles that a very large company must combat. Additionally, you have to admit that, with the cashflow base that Intel and AMD have, they have alot more money to spend on R&D than Apple. In fact, if it weren't for a large cash influx from Microsoft, Apple would have declared bankruptcy a couple years ago..

The whole Microsoft/Apple thing seemed a bit absurd to many of my friends when it happened, but it made sense to me... Microsoft was already over a barrel with the Antitrust suits going on... All it needed was it's only true competitor in the OS market (read this as an alternative to a windows based system that someone is selling for a profit) to go defunct. I am quite sure that Microsoft does not now nor will it probably ever feel any real competition from Mac OS. It has far too much to worry about from the Linux/FreeBSD genre.

Yes, Windows XP 64 bit is in beta, and, from what I have found, would have been out this year, except they made a bit of a logistical mistake and wrote the code following R&D specs from Intel and AMD. The mistake they made was that they didn't bring Intel and AMD along in the whole process (something that Windows is notorius for NOT doing). When the GM chips came out Microsoft found that they had coded to specs that were no longer applicable and had to rework much of the code. I'm not sure of a release date at this point, but I don't think it's going to be very long in coming..

On the switchers note..... People switch back and forth between the two usually based two things: comfort level and personal experience. In general, people are lazy and once they have learned to use a specific item (be that OS, application, or whatever) there is resistance to learning to use something else that they see as comparable, usually, regaurdless of other factors. I see this regularly with AOL. Apple made an extremely smart business move and started offering Macs to schools at a good discount. The kids learned to use a Mac first and will, probably for the rest of thier lives, resist switching to a PC.

On the other point... Someone who has purchased a HORRIBLE discount X86 based PC will judge all X86 based PCs on that experience.. A person who has had a poor enough experience will gravitate towards an alternative. Macs have been considered for a long time as being Moron proof. From what I have seen you don't have to have any experience whatsoever to use and maintain a Mac. This is not true for a PC.. If a person is a Moron they are gonna fork up their PC in very short order. Again, I see this regularly with AOL. SO, someone who has ID10T problems will find themselves having a poor experience with a PC, but will do just fine on a Mac. HOWEVER, it has also been my experience that the reverse of that situation is also true. In my experience, people who start with Macs and expand thier initial intrest have found Macs to be too confining and moved to X86 based PCs for the expanded support and variety.

Please do not infer from this that I am saying that everyone who uses a Mac is a moron or that people who use windows based PC are the only ones who know anything... I am not saying that at all.. What I am voicing are reasons that have been stated to me (if somewhat paraphrased) as to why someone, that I know, has switched from one to the other.

I have said this before.. I will say it again, and I will continue to say it... A Mac and a X86 based PC both have thier place. Both have pros and both have cons. They are designed for diffent purposes Macs for Video and Graphical editing and PC for compatablity and cross platform applications. The fact that the PC lends itself more to gaming has also helped it tremendously.

In closing, I have to say.. Except for a very few instances of people letting personal feelings get in the way of a point and counterpoint debate and making personal attacks.. This has been a very enjoyable discussion.. I have learned something and I hope that I have imparted information that has broadened the horizons of someone else..

Alexander
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Old 08-22-2003, 06:08 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mj_1903
Tomorrow I may wake up to find Microsoft Windows running nicely enough for me to warrant switching back and I will have no hesitancy doing it...whichever is the better platform for my needs is what I will use. It just so happens that at this time Mac OS X and the G4/5 are the best platform for what I do.
Agreed, The same goes for me with Macs.. I guess our views aren't so different after all.. lol..

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Old 08-22-2003, 06:27 AM   #68 (permalink)
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"As I have stated MANY times.. In a video or graphical editing environment... Generally speaking... Macs are superior to X86 based PCs.. I have recently found that many of the highest end video editors used by movie studios for cinematic releases are Windows based. That was a bit of a surprise for me.. "

Unfortunately I can see why it isn't a surprise...the G4 simply did not hack it hardware wise to compete with a Xeon or Pentium machine...they were fairly trounced left and right. That is also the reason Apple has been buying up companies left and right....to make sure the software stays on Mac or is exclusive (Shake and Logic are examples). I am sure if they had the money they would buy Adobe too.

"I am sure that there are many people that you know, since you seem to work in a Mac environment, that would love to use the software that they are familiar with on thier home X86 based PCs. Just as, I am sure that there are people that purchased a Mac and love to run the windows software that they are familiar with through a windows emulator. "

Unfortunately I don't work in a total Mac environment (as programmers we basically write an app that we are missing, makes life easy but instead those were more from family, friends or relatives who would see me working on my PowerBook and go "I wish I had iTunes 4 for Windows...etc". In fact, I wish I had an emulator when I originally switched because 10.0.1 was not up to scratch (although it rapidly was).

" If this has changed with the G4 and G5 then DAMN STRAIGHT.. It's about time.. That point alone has cost them many customers."

I am not sure as to when they did not have that upgrade ability...but the only thing I can see not being standard or easily upgraded is the G5's chips as IBM has not been producing enough to meet Apple's demands. The G4's were upgradeable (I recently switched out my GeForce 2MX for a 4 Ti, added 1Gb of RAM and could happily upgrade the processors to the top of the range that the motherboard could handle (probably Dual 1.42) but like most PC users I don't really have a need). Then again, this is the Power line only...the e and i machines cannot be upgraded to the same degree.

"It has also been my experience that it was much harder to find affordable software for a Mac that accomplished what an individual needed to do, and even at that.. A Mac user was at the mercy of the one, maybe two, Mac dealers that were nearby. Variety being the spice of life, that last point left a very bland taste in many peoples mouths. Again, if this has changed Fantastic... again.. It's about time.. "

I think/hope this has changed. I know if I find software on the internet that I think is too highly priced I simply port and opensource version and slap an OS X Gui on top or write a competitor that I sell for a minimum price...I am a PC users at heart and a Linux advocate in my spare time.

"However, I will guarantee you this. If Intel or AMD start feeling pressure because the Mac PCs are running faster.... Their speed will jump.. Complacency in the marketplace is one of the biggest obstacles that a very large company must combat. Additionally, you have to admit that, with the cashflow base that Intel and AMD have, they have alot more money to spend on R&D than Apple."

Oh, I can't wait. Competition is a great thing in the computer industry. I think the G5 was a perfect wakeup call to intel who have raised the P4 a measly 200mhz this year...that is not impressive.

And yes, Apple's R&D (550 million projected this year) pales in comparison to Microsoft's and Intel's but fortunately IBM is producing their chip.

" I am quite sure that Microsoft does not now nor will it probably ever feel any real competition from Mac OS. It has far too much to worry about from the Linux/FreeBSD genre."

I agree, Microsoft should feel little to no threat. Infact, I think Microsoft made a great investment as they basically bought themselves a nice OS research department.

Now Linux is what I want to see succeed. If it does, more software for the Mac and some true competition in this stagnated industry.

"On the switchers note..... People switch back and forth between the two usually based two things: comfort level and personal experience. In general, people are lazy and once they have learned to use a specific item (be that OS, application, or whatever) there is resistance to learning to use something else that they see as comparable, usually, regaurdless of other factors. I see this regularly with AOL. Apple made an extremely smart business move and started offering Macs to schools at a good discount. The kids learned to use a Mac first and will, probably for the rest of thier lives, resist switching to a PC. "

Yes indeed. I am happy to see Apple picking up its education marketshare and at the same time are upset for AOL in that they are losing customers.

"On the other point... Someone who has purchased a HORRIBLE discount X86 based PC will judge all X86 based PCs on that experience.. A person who has had a poor enough experience will gravitate towards an alternative. Macs have been considered for a long time as being Moron proof. From what I have seen you don't have to have any experience whatsoever to use and maintain a Mac. This is not true for a PC.. If a person is a Moron they are gonna fork up their PC in very short order. Again, I see this regularly with AOL. SO, someone who has ID10T problems will find themselves having a poor experience with a PC, but will do just fine on a Mac. HOWEVER, it has also been my experience that the reverse of that situation is also true. In my experience, people who start with Macs and expand thier initial intrest have found Macs to be too confining and moved to X86 based PCs for the expanded support and variety."

I totally agree. There are both sides to the story. I think Mac OS X though is pushing the boundaries for OS X but then again with this economy...that may not be enough.

"In closing, I have to say.. Except for a very few instances of people letting personal feelings get in the way of a point and counterpoint debate and making personal attacks.. This has been a very enjoyable discussion.. I have learned something and I hope that I have imparted information that has broadened the horizons of someone else.."

Thanks for the conversation..it has brought some excitement to my otherwise boring routine.

And as to your new post, yes, its good to know...and you can be assured that most of the switchers, in particular us Unix/Linux users are very independent.

If you have any questions about OS X, feel free to ask. It seems that sometimes you may not know everything it has to offer...so if you are interested, feel free. Its an amazing OS and it may even delight you into walking down to your local Compusa and taking a look at it more closely. If only it ran on PC hardware...or Windows ran on Mac hardware...
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Old 08-22-2003, 06:36 AM   #69 (permalink)
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off topic, but I gotta make a comment about AOL.. After working in tech support for them for the last 2+ years.. I have to say.. They deserve everything they are getting.. I'll start another thread on this if people are interested in knowing why I feel that way, and my reasons may not be what you think.... lol..

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Old 08-22-2003, 08:37 AM   #70 (permalink)
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we used to have AOL, they were way too expensive for us!
we pay about the same for cable internet as we did for AOL

well it's great we got things sorted out

I guess what Ecniv said before was right; in the end the argument won't have any side to it.
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