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Old 09-15-2005, 07:06 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Okay, I remember having this argument long ago and I agrued for the ideas of thermal expansion. Here is the way it works. You stating:

Heat won't kill it, that's a silly excuse. I've been switching computers on and off for years and I have yet to see one break because of thermal expansion and contraction of the components, because it just DOESN'T happen with modern electronics, e.g. computers.


This is utterly WRONG. It isn't an opinion, it is a standard fact of physics. HOWEVER, modern systems are more robust than older systems. Older systems DID have a HUGE problem with thermal expansion and had a lower heat/ratio/index. Now, on newer systems things like HDD motors and bearings are built to withstand higher temps. Even CPU cores can handle very extreme temps compared to older circuitry. This also explains why there is concern in how much longer we can keep shrinking and making systems faster. Heat index is the main problems, thermal expansion is the other. With proper air flow this is no longer a problem. So, in other words is powering off and on a problem for new systems? VERY doubtful. Was it on older systems? More probable. Does thermal expansion (as said above) just "doesn't happen" with newer electronics. No, they infact DO happen with newer electronics but newer electronics again are more robust and so there is no real worry there.

Sum it up:

Thermal expansion still occurs on newer systems, it just isn't much
of a problem anymore because of cooling, better materials and
engineering. It still happens, though. By the time damage via
expansion would occure it is probably beyond its normal life cycle
anyhow.

Thermal expansion on older systems were a problem. Much like a
sidewalk heating and cooling it eventually cracked.

I leave mine on, however. Reason being, is partially old school habit
and partially because of possible cheap system parts can still be in
a system to cut price and thus cause rapid expansion. Plus, my
I notice very little difference in my power bill.
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Old 09-15-2005, 09:03 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I said the same thing but in a lot few words.

Thermal Expansion or Chip Creep does still happen but it's no where near as big of an issue as it used to be.
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Old 09-15-2005, 11:06 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by killians45
Okay, I remember having this argument long ago and I agrued for the ideas of thermal expansion. Here is the way it works. You stating:

Heat won't kill it, that's a silly excuse. I've been switching computers on and off for years and I have yet to see one break because of thermal expansion and contraction of the components, because it just DOESN'T happen with modern electronics, e.g. computers.


This is utterly WRONG. It isn't an opinion, it is a standard fact of physics. HOWEVER, modern systems are more robust than older systems. Older systems DID have a HUGE problem with thermal expansion and had a lower heat/ratio/index. Now, on newer systems things like HDD motors and bearings are built to withstand higher temps. Even CPU cores can handle very extreme temps compared to older circuitry. This also explains why there is concern in how much longer we can keep shrinking and making systems faster. Heat index is the main problems, thermal expansion is the other. With proper air flow this is no longer a problem. So, in other words is powering off and on a problem for new systems? VERY doubtful. Was it on older systems? More probable. Does thermal expansion (as said above) just "doesn't happen" with newer electronics. No, they infact DO happen with newer electronics but newer electronics again are more robust and so there is no real worry there.

Sum it up:

Thermal expansion still occurs on newer systems, it just isn't much
of a problem anymore because of cooling, better materials and
engineering. It still happens, though. By the time damage via
expansion would occure it is probably beyond its normal life cycle
anyhow.

Thermal expansion on older systems were a problem. Much like a
sidewalk heating and cooling it eventually cracked.

I leave mine on, however. Reason being, is partially old school habit
and partially because of possible cheap system parts can still be in
a system to cut price and thus cause rapid expansion. Plus, my
I notice very little difference in my power bill.

Ok, so you disagree but agree.....um..... If you RE-read this:

Quote:
Originally posted by m3trj
Heat won't kill it, that's a silly excuse. I've been switching computers on and off for years and I have yet to see one break because of thermal expansion and contraction of the components, because it just DOESN'T happen with modern electronics, e.g. computers.
...you could interpret it as saying that "breakdown" doesnt occur on newer systems, rather than that "thermal expansion" doesnt occur on newer systems..... Just debating as you did, but with a much less lengthy response..........
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Old 09-16-2005, 08:50 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Yes, but the reason for the lengthy response if for those who come in here, argue a point and then want facts. So, I add the why to the answer. I've read where there is worry with newer vid cards and the power/heat may bring back expansion problems unless water cooling is used. However, I will say that thermal expansion is the ultimate reasoning in most failed components. It just lasts longer.
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Old 09-17-2005, 06:51 AM   #45 (permalink)
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OK it looks like I caused confusion. Yeah I was saying that thermal expansion does happen, but I was saying that it doesn't cause problems these days.

To sum it up, there isn't any point in leaving your computer on doing nothing, and there is no need to worry about thermal expansion breaking your computer.
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Old 09-17-2005, 10:30 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by m3trj
The components are designed to take the stress of power cycles anyway. [/B]
It's not. It's just designed to minimize it. But at that micro level, you can't make things perfect. It is inevitable.

Quote:
Originally posted by m3trj
[B]But this is just plain silly. Maybe it's different for those with phase change or water cooling or huge overclocks, but for the average computer turning it on and off every day won't hurt it.
Remember, I am talking about thermal expansion. If you have [water cooling or phase change], it's actually "better" for your system - not worse. This is b/c the temperature doesn't "fluctuate" as much.

For the overclockers, it is obviously worse. Better cooling helps in this aspect. In anycase, the mere fact that temperature goes from room temperature to higher temperatures always introduces this issue. No getting around this in a complex system such as a computer.
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Old 09-17-2005, 10:43 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Ok I read more of the responses. As I said before, it "is" designed to minimize the problem. But you can't really eliminate it. Whenever you have material of different thermal densities interact with one another, this problem will happen.

I guess the important thing to state is "know your components well". The $$ you spend goes for something. If you buy cheap parts, chances are the thermal issues haven't been addressed as well. It takes money to ensure these problems don't occur. If you have really good parts, great . Otherwise, be careful .

And m3trj, do you overclock your system?
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Old 09-17-2005, 10:45 AM   #48 (permalink)
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how the hell can a proc creep out of its socket with a darn great heatsink strapped to the top of it?
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Old 09-17-2005, 10:46 AM   #49 (permalink)
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^ a processor can fall out of its socket?
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Old 09-17-2005, 10:48 AM   #50 (permalink)
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lol.. It's magic ..
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