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Old 09-04-2008, 08:38 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmatt View Post
Quote:
If you spend the same on a s775 board as you do on an AM2+ board, you'll probably be getting a better board with AM2+
That is completely subjective and not based on fact what so ever. And I can prove it.

I picked two motherboards, one s775 and one AM2+ that were of comparable spec, feature wise and performance wise. I even picked Apok's SB750

Newegg.com - BIOSTAR TForce TP45HP LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards
$100


Newegg.com - MSI DKA790GX Platinum AM2+/AM2 AMD 790GX HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards
$160


The P45 is crossfireX capable and this particular one is known to be able to reach very high fsb. It was $130 when I bought it about a month ago. Now its $100.

The 790GX supports the same max ram, the same memory speeds and even has the same dual card support, but it cost $60 more. why would that be?
1. 790GX has a really good onboard GPU (currently, the BEST performing onboard GPU on the market which neither Intel nor Nvidia have a match for, especially not Intel)
2. AM2+/AM3 has better I/O performance

all of the descent AM2+ boards can reach high HTT speeds (which you'd mainly use for K8 processors) though even without that, the HTT bus gives better I/O performance than FSB
though K10 processors overclock best with their multipliers. But they have faster HTT performance than K8 anyway.

Also, another case-in-point: how many s775 boards have 4 x PCI-E 16X slots?
AM2+ boards can be had for about $200 that do.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:50 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

When you are talking about a motherboard that has dual pcie slots integrated graphics doesn't matter. In fact it shouldn't even be there. Nobody who is going to spend that much money on a mobo would use an IGP, and to say its the best IGP isn't saying much either.


AM2/AM3 may have a better theoretical max through put, but they can't even use it, and tests show that even with fsb Intel system still out perform.

Of course in a month or two this will all be moot because Intel will have QPI so you loose that edge (if it even was one) and if your only selling point for a high end motherboard is that it has good integrated graphics, then your in trouble.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:58 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
1. 790GX has a really good onboard GPU (currently, the BEST performing onboard GPU on the market)
2. AM2+/AM3 has better I/O performance

all of the descent AM2+ boards can reach high HTT speeds (which you'd mainly use for K8 processors) though even without that, the HTT bus gives better I/O performance than FSB
though K10 processors overclock best with their multipliers. But they have faster HTT performance than K8 anyway.
The fact that it has good igp does not justify that price vs the p45. You cold buy the p45 and a a HD 2600 for less.

You can't say the Phenoms are good overclockers when it takes ln2 to get a phenom 9950 to 4ghz while a Q6600 can do it on air.

Phenom 9950 Cracks The 4GHz Barrier On LN2 - Tom's Hardware
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:17 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

I had another look through newegg. Seeing as how you used a cheap brand motherboard, here's a cheap brand 790GX board:
Newegg.com - BIOSTAR TFORCE TA790GX A2+ AM2+/AM2 AMD 790GX HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards
which still has two PCI-E 16X slots and still has the powerful IGP and is $100
so that just blows your argument away.
But alas....
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmatt View Post
When you are talking about a motherboard that has dual pcie slots integrated graphics doesn't matter.
To some people.
And PCI-E slots are not only used for graphics cards, either.
Quote:
In fact it shouldn't even be there.
Why not?
it's perfect for those who want a cheap upgrade, but can't afford a good video card yet.
Vernong was in that exact position. I gave (yes, gave) him an X2 4600+ and 2GB DDR2-1066, which he is now using in a 780G board.
With any onboard video card he could have gotten on an Intel system, he'd have a lot lower performance.
but the 780G can play COD4 comfortably. And it's possible to overclock it to about double its performance just by putting a fan over the passive heatsink.
Quote:
Nobody who is going to spend that much money on a mobo
Uh, it's hardly an expensive board. Even then, check out the $100 board I posted.
Quote:
would use an IGP
The only reason people don't tend to use IGP's is... guess what? performance.

I mean, the 790GX can run Crysis. without an extra video card.
[edit]BTW: 790GX can use its own memory, rather than system memory[/edit]
Quote:
and to say its the best IGP isn't saying much either.
It is when you consider the orders of magnitude better it is over other IGP's

Quote:
AM2/AM3 may have a better theoretical max through put, but they can't even use it
Sure they can. It depends what programs you're running.
Quote:
and tests show that even with fsb Intel system still out perform.
They have bucketloads of cache with some pretty good prefetching algorithms, which give them a boost in things like media encoding
But in something like WinRAR, which basically is just a heap of data being pieced together again, the HTT bus gives a nice advantage here.
And when you're gaming, tests have shown that the I/O performance of AM2+ boards has given AMD systems an edge over even Yorkfield systems.

Quote:
Of course in a month or two this will all be moot because Intel will have QPI so you loose that edge (if it even was one)
Which you'd have to buy a new motherboard, CPU and RAM for.
x58 will be expensive, and DDR3 is also expensive too.
Quote:
and if your only selling point for a high end motherboard is that it has good integrated graphics, then your in trouble.
Hmmm, motherboard with no IGP vs motherboard with worlds best IGP and better I/O performance which won't be obsolete soon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddle Jumper View Post
The fact that it has good igp does not justify that price vs the p45. You cold buy the p45 and a a HD 2600 for less.
Not less than the $100 board I posted.

Quote:
You can't say the Phenoms are good overclockers when it takes ln2 to get a phenom 9950 to 4ghz while a Q6600 can do it on air.
Most Q6600's get about 3.5
same as most Phenom's can with SB750's (on air)

Besides, 4GHZ has been done on DICE with Agena (a far stretch fro LN2). And on stock cooling with Deneb.

[edit]
the Biostar 790GX board can be bought with a 9850 BE for $238.99
[/edit]
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:32 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

Biostar is not a cheap brand. They make the best P45s around. You accusations of them being cheap just show your ignorance.


Quote:
To some people.
And PCI-E slots are not only used for graphics cards, either.

Really? I haven't seen PCIe 16x used for anything but graphics cards or graphics related equipment. I would so far as to say with exception to some low production experimental or special use cards that PCIe x16 is exclusively used for video cards.


Quote:
The only reason people don't tend to use IGP's is... guess what? performance.

I mean, the 790GX can run Crysis. without an extra video card.

Yeah on very low settings. Gamers don't use IGPs and that board is obviously marketed towards gamers.




Quote:
They have bucketloads of cache with some pretty good prefetching algorithms, which give them a boost in things like media encoding
But in something like WinRAR, which basically is just a heap of data being pieced together again, the HTT bus gives a nice advantage here.
And when you're gaming, tests have shown that the I/O performance of AM2+ boards has given AMD systems an edge over even Yorkfield systems.

Really now. Funny, all the tests I have seen with Phenom against Core2 have had Phenom loosing against the chip it is supposed to compete against.



Quote:
though K10 processors overclock best with their multipliers.
So what you are saying is that they are like the Pentium 4, except the Pentium 4 could actually OC well.
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:47 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

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Originally Posted by zmatt View Post
Biostar is not a cheap brand. They make the best P45s around. You accusations of them being cheap just show your ignorance.
Historically, they are.
Quote:
Really? I haven't seen PCIe 16x used for anything but graphics cards or graphics related equipment. I would so far as to say with exception to some low production experimental or special use cards that PCIe x16 is exclusively used for video cards.
PCI-E 16X slots are not restricted to PCI-E 16X cards. They can be used for PCI-E 16X, 8X, 4X and 1X cards

Quote:
Yeah on very low settings.
At quite nice framerates.
I mean, it's obviously not a 4870. But it blows any other IGP out of the water.
Quote:
Gamers don't use IGPs
They can, and some do now. Now that 780G and 790GX exists.
Quote:
and that board is obviously marketed towards gamers.
It's not oriented towards a single market segment. It's a high performance board that's cheap and includea a really good IGP for those people that use them (of which, you are seriously underestimating the number of)

Quote:
Really now. Funny, all the tests I have seen with Phenom against Core2 have had Phenom loosing against the chip it is supposed to compete against.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/....php?t=197423/

If you understood my post. I'm obviously not arguing Phenom is a better CPU overall.
My point is that you and many other people are giving the Phenom's far less credit than they actually deserve, and that it's much closer to C2Q's than most people like to believe.
That, and it's not made by a monopolistic, and quite frankly an arsehole of a company.

At the very very least, he's not going wrong with buying a Phenom CPU.

Quote:
So what you are saying is that they are like the Pentium 4
Oh, clever you. A single similarity.
Quote:
except the Pentium 4 could actually OC well.
Begging the question
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:57 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

I never said the phenom was bad. If you look at my posts earlier in this thread you will see that Drizzit and I were able to be civil about this and speak honestly about the phenom.


It isn't a bad processor but in a Binary market if you aren't the best then you suffer. AMD has made some large inroads into the market because of the old K8 . You see more OEM pcs with the Athlon badge and they are getting more brand recognition because of it. That does not let them off the hook however. Phenom as an architecture is a mess. Yes the cpus they make now maybe not be that far behind the Intel ones, but if AMD uses the same flawed core logic on the next chips (which they are) then the gap will only increase.


Quote:
Oh, clever you. A single similarity.
Don't belittle me. There is a fine line between debate and flaming and your starting to cross it.
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Old 09-04-2008, 10:09 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

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Originally Posted by zmatt View Post
I never said the phenom was bad. If you look at my posts earlier in this thread you will see that Drizzit and I were able to be civil about this and speak honestly about the phenom.
Then what's with this debate?
Quote:
That does not let them off the hook however. Phenom as an architecture is a mess.
Actually, I think the architecture is very well done. It's the implementation of it that wasn't 100% successful when it was first released. And I still think that Phenom is not really meant for 65nm.
heck, even Intel didn't think that a monolithic quad could be done on 65nm.
But AMD did it, and have been more successful than probably anybody else could have been in their shoes.
And the fact is, lots of progress has been made. With ACC, They are now overclocking better than people usually think they do.
The problem with Phenom's now is not that they're bad CPU's, or necessarily bad overclockers. It's the negative association with their name that the entirely blown-out-of-proportion TLB bug and initial lack of overclockability caused.
Quote:
Yes the cpus they make now maybe not be that far behind the Intel ones, but if AMD uses the same flawed core logic on the next chips (which they are) then the gap will only increase.
If you're referring to the TLB bug, that was a very minor issue blown right out of proportion by media at a bad time, which has since been fixed anyway.
Quote:
Don't belittle me. There is a fine line between debate and flaming and your starting to cross it.
There's nothing I said that was out of line with what you said.
Quote:
So what you are saying is that they are like the Pentium 4, except the Pentium 4 could actually OC well.
I mean, I could have decided to be offended by that.
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:37 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

apok ---> <--- zmatt

simmer down boys...
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:23 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Default Re: Possible stupid Q... X4 vs X2..

Quote:
Then what's with this debate?
The OP wanted build a new machine but he was convinced into buying a phenom build due to misinformation. This devolved into a debate because of ego over a company that none of us have an affiliation with.



Quote:
Actually, I think the architecture is very well done. It's the implementation of it that wasn't 100% successful when it was first released. And I still think that Phenom is not really meant for 65nm.
heck, even Intel didn't think that a monolithic quad could be done on 65nm.
But AMD did it, and have been more successful than probably anybody else could have been in their shoes.
And the fact is, lots of progress has been made. With ACC, They are now overclocking better than people usually think they do.
When the facts are important what one thinks is hardly relevant. Most of your arguments revolve around subjective things. YOU think that it was poorly implemented, YOU think 45nm will save the world. YOU aren't an engineer and YOU dont have much data to back it up. Just hearsay and conjecture over something nobody has been able to get their hands on.

Quote:
The problem with Phenom's now is not that they're bad CPU's, or necessarily bad overclockers. It's the negative association with their name that the entirely blown-out-of-proportion TLB bug and initial lack of overclockability caused.
Although this did contribute a great deal to its bad rep that in and of itself didn't kill Phenom. You say they OC well but the only 4ghz run that anyone can substantiate took Liquid Nitrogen. The TLB bug is gone but that didn't alleviate the lack luster performance overall. The truth is the Phenom just isn't that fast.
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