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Old 09-11-2007, 02:59 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

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Originally Posted by Wildside View Post
Apokalipse, u saying u still have hope for the HD 2900 XT to outperform the GTX
No, I'm not saying "I have hope for X2900 XT"

what I am saying is that R600 is a more powerful GPU than G80, and therefore your statement that X2900 is crap, is false.

What you seem to be missing is that I don't care which one is better. I'm just saying R600 has a more powerful GPU (which it does) which is let down by drivers (which it is)

And the fact is, it is improving with better drivers, to the point where it is competitive with the GTX already.

Quote:
If u remember correctly, the HD 2900 XTX is suppose to go against the GTX, not the XT
whether or not you arbitrarily say XT or XTX is supposed to go against GTX, it doesn't change the fact that R600 itself is more powerful than G80. And therefore, X2900 XT is not a "crap card"

And you are yet again deviating from the original point.
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:25 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

Apokalipse,

You still need to explain how R600 GPU more powerful than G80 ? Did you say that it is a fact that R600 is more powerful ? This is not fact, thats just your opinion.

G80 has more texture units and more ROP, that it means that is more powerful when it comes to texture and pixel fill rate

R600 is better in shader operation

This means G80 is more efficient in some areas and R600 is more efficient in other areas


Quote:
It has higher shader operations/sec, which are used a lot more for games.
If that was true, then 8600GTS should be faster than 7950GT in every game, because it has 3 times the shader power of 7950GT. But the main reason why 7950GT outperforms 8600GTS in most cases is because 7950GT have higher texture fill rate and pixel fill rate than 86000GTS
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:31 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

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Originally Posted by maroon1 View Post
Apokalipse,

You still need to explain how R600 GPU more powerful than G80 ? Did you say that it is a fact that R600 is more powerful ? This is not fact, thats just your opinion.
Opinions aren't raw numbers.

Quote:
If that was true, then 8600GTS should be faster than 7950GT in every game, because it has 3 times the shader power of 7950GT. But the main reason why 7950GT outperforms 8600GTS in most cases is because 7950GT have higher texture fill rate and pixel fill rate than 86000GTS
Do you really think the architecture is comparable?

The pipelines on the 8600 are unified pixel and vertex shaders.
The shader operations per second of the 8600 can only reach that level if all of the pipelines are dedicated to shader operations, which simply doesn't happen in games.

Then, there are the drivers used by the 8600, memory bandwith (higher on 7950 GT), and the length of the shaders.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:03 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

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Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
Opinions aren't raw numbers.
Based on what numbers you are saying that R600 is more powerful than G80 ?

If you read your previous posts you said that R600 is more powerful, without explaining how !!

Yea, you are right it is not your opinion. It just your belief.

Quote:
Do you really think the architecture is comparable?
I think the architecture of R600 and G80 are not comparable

G80 have 128 unified shaders, and it can do both MAD and MUL instructions at the same time per clock

R600 have 64 unified shader. In each unified shader there are 5 stream processing units. Thats why you have a total 320 steam processor. The first 4 stream processor units in the unified shader do MAD or MUL per clock (but not at the same time). The fifth stream processor unit is more complex


So, the G80 and R600 architecture are different and it is not easy to compare them by just looking at the specs

Quote:
The pipelines on the 8600 are unified pixel and vertex shaders.
The shader operations per second of the 8600 can only reach that level if all of the pipelines are dedicated to shader operations, which simply doesn't happen in games.

Then, there are the drivers used by the 8600, memory bandwith (higher on 7950 GT), and the length of the shaders.
Ok, let us compare 7600GT and X1650XT

X1650XT have about twice the shader power of 7600GT

7600GT have more texture and pixel fill rate, but not twice as much as X1650XT

In gaming, 7600GT beats X1650XT in some games and vice versa. So, on average they are on par in gaming performance.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:09 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

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Originally Posted by maroon1 View Post
Based on what numbers you are saying that R600 is more powerful G80 ?

If you read your previous posts you said that R600 is more powerful, without explaining how !!
I did in the post before that.


Quote:
I think the architecture of R600 and G80 are not comparable
And you're trying to compare them.

Quote:
G80 have 128 unified shader, and those stream processors can do both MAD and MUL instructions at the same time per clock
And?

Quote:
R600 have 64 unified shader. In each unified shader there are 5 stream processing units. Thats why you have a total 320 steam processor. The first 4 stream processor units in the unified shader do MAD or MUL per clock (but not at the same time). The fifth stream processor unit is more complex
But the 64 pipelines don't have to do MAD or MUL instructions at once.

Quote:
So, the G80 and R600 architecture are different and it is not easy to compare them bu just looking at the specs
And yet, you are trying to do so, all the while criticising me for making a judgement on which is more powerful.
Gee, I dunno what you're trying to argue here.

Quote:
Ok, let us compare 7600GT and X1650XT

X1650XT have about twice the shader power of 7600GT

7600GT have more texture and pixel fill rate, but not twice as much as X1650XT

In gaming, 7600GT beats X1650XT in some games and vice versa. So, on average they are on par in gaming performance.
And you're still trying to compare two completely different architectures, even though you yourself have said you can't really compare the architectures of the GPU's by those specs alone.

*edit*
AMD's Radeon HD 2900 XT graphics processor - The Tech Report - Page 2
Quote:
So how does R600's shader power compare to G80? Both AMD and Nvidia like to throw around peak FLOPS numbers when talking about their chips. Mercifully, they both seem to have agreed to count programmable operations from the shader core, bracketing out fixed-function units for graphics-only operations. Nvidia has cited a peak FLOPS capacity for the GeForce 8800 GTX of 518.4 GFLOPS. The G80 can co-issue one MAD and one MUL instruction per clock to each of its 128 scalar SPs. That's three operations (multiply-add and multiply) per cycle at 1.35GHz, or 518.4 GFLOPS. However, the guys at B3D have shown that that extra MUL is not always available, which makes counting it questionable. If you simply count the MAD, you get a peak of 345.6 GFLOPS for G80.
By comparison, the R600's 320 stream processors running at 742MHz give it a peak capacity of 475 GFLOPS. Mike Houston, the GPGPU guru from Stanford, told us he had achieved an observed compute throughput of 470 GFLOPS on R600 with "just a giant MAD kernel." So R600 seems capable of hitting something very near its peak throughput in the right situation. What happens in graphics and games, of course, may vary quite a bit from that.
while G80 has trouble hitting nearly as close to its theoretical peak performance
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:28 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

Apokalipse,

You haven't said anything

First: I know long time ago that MUL is not always available, but when it is available the stream processor of G80 would be more efficient.

Second: You still haven't have proved that R600 GPU is more powerful.

Third: I'm not the one who is comparing them. You are the on who started that. Just reread your previous posts. You said that it is a fact that R600 GPU is better than G80. I was showing you that your "fact" is completely wrong. You claimed that Shader Operation is more important than anything else for gaming !! You think that R600 is more powerful just because it can do more shader operations !! Thats completely wrong ! I was trying to show you that what you said is not true.....

I'm myself don't think that G80 is more powerful than R600, nor I think that R600 is more powerful than G80. Actually I believe that G80 is powerful in some areas and R600 is more powerful in other areas.

Quote:
But the 64 pipelines don't have to do MAD or MUL instructions at once.
LOL !!

What video card have 64 pipelines ? NON

R600 have 64 superscalar unified shader, not 64 pipelines

G80 have 128 superscalar unified shader

Both don't have pipelines like the older video cards

Quote:
while G80 has trouble hitting nearly as close to its theoretical peak performance
Yea, but the theoretical peak performance of G80 is higher than R600. But the difference is that G80 can't always reach it

So the peak performance of G80 is somewhere between 345.6 GFLOPS and 518.4 GFLOPS

R600 is 470 GFLOPS


...............

But non of what you said proves that R600 is more powerful than G80. The R600 might be more powerful in shader operations but in other things like texture fill rate and pixel fill rate R600 is less powerful
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:45 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

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Originally Posted by maroon1 View Post
Apokalipse,

You haven't said anything
My posts are not blank!
this is getting ridiculous. I'm not going to repeat myself.
Quote:
First: I know long time ago that MUL is not always available, but when it is available the stream processor of G80 would be more efficient.
Quote:
Second: You still haven't have proved that R600 GPU is more powerful.
You must not have read my posts.
Quote:
Third: I'm not the one who is comparing them.
Oh, but you are.
Quote:
You are the on who started that.
I didn't start attacking people for having an opinion.
Quote:
Just reread your previous posts. You said that it is a fact that R600 GPU is better than G80. I was showing you that your "fact" is completely wrong. You said that R600 is more powerful just because it can do more shader operations !!
AND because it can actually reach close to its maximum processing power, while G80 can't.
Quote:
I'm myself don't think that G80 is more powerful than R600, nor I think R600 is more powerful than G80. Actually I believe that G80 is powerful in some areas and R600 is more powerful in other areas.
I don't believe you. But I'm not even going to argue this.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:45 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

just a question. where do u learn all this stuff from maroon1 and apokalipse? like about gpu/cpu's i would like to learn as much a you
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:48 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

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Originally Posted by baron5 View Post
just a question. where do u learn all this stuff from maroon1? like about gpu/cpu's i would like to learn as much a you
Wherever you can find it.

It's a skill to be able to find the information. Unfortunately, there's often a lot of misinformation.
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:49 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Default Re: Nvidia G92 is the 8700GTS

Apokalipse,

I edited my above post

Posted by maroon1
Quote:
But non of what you said proves that R600 is more powerful than G80. The R600 might be more powerful in shader operations but in other things like texture fill rate and pixel fill rate R600 is less powerful
If R600 is more powerfull than G80 then I think it should have higher texture and pixel fill rate

But it doesn't

Quote:
I didn't start attacking people for having an opinion.
But I didn't attack you

And you said that it is a fact in your previous post. You didn't say that it is your opinion...
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