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Old 10-31-2005, 08:51 PM   #131 (permalink)
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The new Xbox cpu is based off the mac's? I didn't know that, kind of ironic that a Microsoft console's cpu is based off a mac isn't it? So all that power can't be completely compared to a PC just off the spec sheets right?
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:11 PM   #132 (permalink)
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So all that power can't be completely compared to a PC just off the spec sheets right?
That would be my guess, but I don't know what I'm talking about.

Do you guys think mid-range pc parts will go down in price after the release of the xbox360 because many gamers might be attracted to the xbox instead of pc's?
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:25 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Yes and no. You can try and compare using emulation on the projected power of the two units, but you can't have definate results until a true bench mark is done. XBox 360 is possible to get a bench mark, but not the PS3 because there is nothing but the flesh out on paper and probably a alpha if not a beta kit that as of now wouldn't show its true power. Add into the equation multiple cells on a network and it becomes even harder to determine its true potential, and since this is new groundwork, there is very little actual data to compare with. As far as out of the box (just thePS3 without the distributed computing and the XBOX 360) then you can compare a little. As far as floating point goes, it depens on how you test them. I wouldn't trust either MS or Sony on the floating point calcs because there is no standard they are using to measure it.

"A floating point operation can be anything; it can be adding two floating point numbers together, or it can be performing a dot product on two floating point numbers, it can even be just calculating the complement of a fp number. Anything that is executed on a FPU is fair game to be called a floating point operation.

Secondly, both floating point power numbers refer to the whole system, CPU and GPU. Obviously a GPU's floating point processing power doesn't mean anything if you're trying to run general purpose code on it and vice versa. As we've seen from the graphics market, characterizing GPU performance in terms of generic floating point operations per second is far from the full performance story."

Third, when a manufacturer is talking about peak floating point performance there are a few things that they aren't taking into account. Being able to process billions of operations per second depends on actually being able to have that many floating point operations to work on. That means that you have to have enough bandwidth to keep the FPUs fed, no mispredicted branches, no cache misses and the right structure of code to make sure that all of the FPUs can be fed at all times so they can execute at their peak rates. We already know that's not the case as game developers have already told us that the Xenon CPU isn't even in the same realm of performance as the Pentium 4 or Athlon 64. Not to mention that the requirements for hitting peak theoretical performance are always ridiculous; caches are only so big and thus there will come a time where a request to main memory is
needed, and you can expect that request to be fulfilled in a few hundred clock cycles, where no floating point operations will be happening at all."

So, as you can see it all depends on the test type being conducted, and who its being conducted for. Interestingly enough, the PS3 suffers greatly from the 3rd point because of bandwidth problems and a smaller cache size.
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:32 PM   #134 (permalink)
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notquitedead: Its possible, but probably not for the reasons of the 360 and PS3. MS has a copyright on some of the technology used on the GPU for its procedural synthesis and alot of the architecture, and although they will probably release it eventually to earn more money I doubt it will be anytime soon and probably wont impact the market much because by the time they do it will be obsolete. They want to milk as many 360's as they can. The big reason for decrease in price is because of how the big memory companies got busted for price gouging, and if they were still doing it to the day they got caught, we should see price drops in memory in the next year thus bringing prices of vid cards, memory, and any other memory dependant device drop because of memory price decreases.
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:35 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Another way to look at this comparison of flops is to look at integer add
latencies on the Pentium 4 vs. the Athlon 64. The Pentium 4 has two double
pumped ALUs, each capable of performing two add operations per clock, that's
a total of 4 add operations per clock; so we could say that a 3.8GHz Pentium
4 can perform 15.2 billion operations per second. The Athlon 64 has three
ALUs each capable of executing an add every clock; so a 2.8GHz Athlon 64
can perform 8.4 billion operations per second. By this silly console
marketing logic, the Pentium 4 would be almost twice as fast as the Athlon
64, and a multi-core Pentium 4 would be faster than a multi-core Athlon 64.
Any AnandTech reader should know that's hardly the case. No code is
composed entirely of add instructions, and even if it were, eventually the
Pentium 4 and Athlon 64 will have to go out to main memory for data, and
when they do, the Athlon 64 has a much lower latency access to memory than
the P4. In the end, despite what these horribly concocted numbers may lead
you to believe, they say absolutely nothing about performance. The exact
same situation exists with the CPUs of the next-generation consoles; don't
fall for it.

Also above is interesting: Note, alot of these quotes are from AnandTech

Also, as far as the water cooling latest I heard is it is a coolant and is a heat sink solution and all sealed. So, there will not be any need for topping of the liquid cooling (liquid is more acurate, it wont use water).
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Old 10-31-2005, 09:54 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Thats so f'ed up that Microsoft is basing part of their console off something APPLE uses for there products
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Old 10-31-2005, 10:02 PM   #137 (permalink)
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um, actually the powerPC is not just apple, but IBM, Motorolla, AND Apple. Plus, this is based off of the technology of powerPC but in of itself is STILL very differernt. Hell, Apple is switching to Intel. Also, be just as mad at Sony, because IBM developed (along with the new 360 architecture) the cell processor which ALSO borrows ideas from the powerPC. The general idea is the same, but both architecures for both consoles are so radically different then the G5. Basically, the G5 was the closest thing to what MS was going for that they had to use the Mac as the Alpha kit. However, the actual console itself is a different beast.
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Old 10-31-2005, 10:26 PM   #138 (permalink)
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So basically neither PCs nor Macs are any match for these consoles. :classic:
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Old 10-31-2005, 10:28 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Macs don't even deserve the time of day with gaming.
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Old 10-31-2005, 10:51 PM   #140 (permalink)
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as of now, nope. They don't hold a candle. That will change, though. It's just this architecture is so radicalyl different. You may also want to keep in mind that the first generation of 360 and ps3 games may not only be a step or two up from the previus console because the software developers have ALOT of catching up and learning to do.
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