Computer/Server spec advice

[dwright]

PP Mguire, you've been a great help - thanks very much. I'll source all my components over the next week and post them up to check with you if that's ok?

One last thing - you mention Win 7 Pro for the OS, is Win 7 Ultimate not necessary then? What would be the optimum size for the SSD containg the host OS? You mentioned 64GB. My current host Win7 instal seems to be about 25GB and my VM's with Win7 installed range between 20GB to 40GB. To be on the safe side should I get an SSD of, say 100GB or will 64GB be enough? I don't plan to put anything else on this host OS apart from the OS, but am worried that for some strange reason it may start getting bigger and bigger and get close to the 64GB and start to slow down.

 

[Frosty is a Snowman]

Frosty, I want to run the automated software program and 1 webpage in each VM.

I would actually need to run 15 VM's as although the software is the same, I am signing into the software using 15 different accounts and each account is doing something different.

I understood that and I still think this can still be done, we use virtual apps at work and I can load multiple instances of the same app and log in using different accounts, or run these apps using a different AD account.

I just think it would be worth asking the people who setup virtual environments for a living how they would deploy this type of setup.
as you might be able to save a lot of money, not just now, but in the long run, especially when you need to increase the number of instances of the app or virtual desktops that need to be running.

Having an independent core, large allocation of ram and potentially an individual hard drive for each VM just seems to be a little bit of an overkill for what you are trying to achieve.
We have thousands of users connecting to virtual desktops, virtual apps, databased etc. and do not have it setup so that each user requires their own core etc. and these users are using multiple apps with their virtual desktops

You could most likely setup a citrix server to achieve the same virtual desktop environment but on a much smaller server setup

I just think you are going about this the wrong way, and could do with getting more advice on the best way to deploy this setup before you jump in feet first and buy server parts.
A setup like this requires good planning and deployment, not just brute force hardware

 

[PP Mguire]

PP Mguire, you've been a great help - thanks very much. I'll source all my components over the next week and post them up to check with you if that's ok?

One last thing - you mention Win 7 Pro for the OS, is Win 7 Ultimate not necessary then? What would be the optimum size for the SSD containg the host OS? You mentioned 64GB. My current host Win7 instal seems to be about 25GB and my VM's with Win7 installed range between 20GB to 40GB. To be on the safe side should I get an SSD of, say 100GB or will 64GB be enough? I don't plan to put anything else on this host OS apart from the OS, but am worried that for some strange reason it may start getting bigger and bigger and get close to the 64GB and start to slow down.

You will install the VM software itself along with the host OS on the SSD, the actual virtual drives will be installed on the HDDs you are putting in there. Windows 7 and the VM software itself (again not the virtual machines) should only take about 30GB tops.

Windows 7 Ultimate is kind of a waste as it only offers a few extra things most people don't need. The 2 features that are different between Pro and Ultimate are the use of Bitlocker and multi-langual. Pro doesn't offer these 2 things.

I understood that and I still think this can still be done, we use virtual apps at work and I can load multiple instances of the same app and log in using different accounts, or run these apps using a different AD account.

I just think it would be worth asking the people who setup virtual environments for a living how they would deploy this type of setup.
as you might be able to save a lot of money, not just now, but in the long run, especially when you need to increase the number of instances of the app or virtual desktops that need to be running.

Having an independent core, large allocation of ram and potentially an individual hard drive for each VM just seems to be a little bit of an overkill for what you are trying to achieve.
We have thousands of users connecting to virtual desktops, virtual apps, databased etc. and do not have it setup so that each user requires their own core etc. and these users are using multiple apps with their virtual desktops

You could most likely setup a citrix server to achieve the same virtual desktop environment but on a much smaller server setup

I just think you are going about this the wrong way, and could do with getting more advice on the best way to deploy this setup before you jump in feet first and buy server parts.
A setup like this requires good planning and deployment, not just brute force hardware

I think you should look into what this guy is saying. I'm no expert or anything when it comes to VMs. I was just giving you advice on the hardware end. You should definitely go ask the VM and software guys what they think.

 

[dwright]

Thanks for your suggestions Frosty - I should've elaborated a bit more about the requirements for the VM's. I would want them to be seen as independant computers to the outside internet world. Each VM needs to have a unique IP Address and unique Default Gateway. I've posted a question in the networking section,

http://www.techist.com/forums/f44/possible-have-multiple-default-gateways-264153/

about a this. This must require individual VM's mustn't it? Even without the IP requirements my usual scenario would not lend itself to not having VM's. Here's a scenario:

VM1 (User1)
-I download a host program. (It has a very basic graphical interface that my automation software will read through Image Recognition)
-I download automation software.
-I run the host program and the automated software reads the images.

VM2 (User2)
-I would do the same again, but this time the host program might be completely different and the automated software that I am using may also be completely different.

I might have 15 VM's running and no two VM's are running the same host program or the same automation software.

But, yes I should ask what a virtualisation specialist would do if he were wanting to run 15 VM's comfortably.

 

[PP Mguire]

Thanks for your suggestions Frosty - I should've elaborated a bit more about the requirements for the VM's. I would want them to be seen as independant computers to the outside internet world. Each VM needs to have a unique IP Address and unique Default Gateway. I've posted a question in the networking section,

http://www.techist.com/forums/f44/possible-have-multiple-default-gateways-264153/

about a this. This must require individual VM's mustn't it? Even without the IP requirements my usual scenario would not lend itself to not having VM's. Here's a scenario:

VM1 (User1)
-I download a host program. (It has a very basic graphical interface that my automation software will read through Image Recognition)
-I download automation software.
-I run the host program and the automated software reads the images.

VM2 (User2)
-I would do the same again, but this time the host program might be completely different and the automated software that I am using may also be completely different.

I might have 15 VM's running and no two VM's are running the same host program or the same automation software.

But, yes I should ask what a virtualisation specialist would do if he were wanting to run 15 VM's comfortably.

Personally if it was me I would want all VMs running on separate machines, but that is only if I was given the funds via a company or sponsor. If it was my own cash I would look at different ways to cut costs while still maintaining the same goal.

 

[Frosty is a Snowman]

with that I would look at using something like citrix to deploy this type of setup, as I think that not only is it tailor made for this type of task, the system requirements should be a lot less.
I think if you use something like 32 cores, you can support about 500 users on XenDesktop by providing virtual apps
so I would guess if you had something around 8 to 16 physical cores you could easily run 50 full desktop images, if not more without any performance issues. (but this is just a guess)

You have to think about the load your virtual desktops will require, as it may not need or use a full core, and if you allocate a maximum % of the core that an individual image can use, then this could mean getting more desktops per core.
this I believe is also something that can be done using Microsoft's virtual server, to allow multiple virtual desktops to use the same physical core.
Virtual cores is also another way I believe to allow multiple virtual desktop to use the same CPU.

You mentioned that each virtual desktop was using 50% of an old desktop CPU, this could turn out to be 25-30% of a server CPU, therefore you could potentially run 3 virtual desktop from the same core, thus reducing the need to allocate an individual core for each virtual desktop
If you think about this and even use that strategy on the setup you have planned you will notice you don't need to have as many cores as you are planning


You might alternatively have to look into getting 2 or more cheaper servers, and creating a farm, to create load balancing, remember not all of the virtual desktop may be in use or in full use at the same time, so you may be able to spread the requirements load across a farm.
This still could be cheaper than the rig you are looking to build
and it would be easier to expand in the future, as it is easier and cheaper to add a small server to your farm, rather than paying large amounts out to upgrade the configuration you have planned.

 

[dwright]

Ok, thanks PP Mguire and thanks Frosty, you've both been very helpful. It makes sense to approach the problem looking at my virtualisation requirements first to then realise the hardware requirements. Frosty, as the chat will now be about virtualisation, should I re-post or move this thread to the virtualisation section of the forum so that you and other virtualisation specialists can comment? If so, do you know how to move the post?

 

[C0RR0SIVE]

I am sure a mod wont have problems moving this thread for you, that way a link for it appears in both sections.

 

[dwright]

I've just had a look through the members list, but can't find any Moderators to contact. Do you know how to go about contacting them?

*I've posted about moving the thread in 'Forum Admin'

 

[jasonalwaysready]

I hope im adding and not hijacking, but my company seems to be going this route, but looks like they want room for 20-30 people and are currently buying a $10k server to use. 2.. maybe 3 people like myself actually use a computer to its limits, rather than an internet email document machine.

Is there something else that we should be doing, especially regarding a $10k dell server.