Soundcard or not?

[EricB]

I wish that I could find an old post by the major. he started a thread like this. but he actually did the actual work.
he had an old cheap soundcard and he had a board with 7.1 hd audio. as he realize when he directly compared them (as oppose to listening to people say that you can't tell the difference), the cheap sound card beat the onboard hands down

veedubfreak, I'm shocked that you can go this route. if I say stick with onboard video, you would shut me down, because you know that the expensive cards are better. the difference is you can actually see video, but not audio.

you can't tell the difference if you don't directly compare them. but you can if you do directly compare them

 

[gurusan]

It's not as cut and dry as a video card though. Framerate is pretty obvious, the perception of "good sound", on the other hand is a bit more subjective.

Also there is more equipment involved....some people have sound cards and talk about how amazing their XFI is with their crappy medusa or creative 5.1 headphones, where in reality modern onboard with a better set of cans or some decent speakerswill be better.

I'm still very noobish but have heard various setups...I've had Sennheiser HD205s for a few years and loved them. They've been driven from amped sources, a XFI, modded XFI, and onboard. They sounded best on the modded XFI and modding it is what got me recently into audio a bit more...

and now I have an external CS4397 based DAC and a little basic headphone amp along with HD 580s and the sound is wonderful....miles and miles away from my setup before.

However, the sound from even my HD 205s and P5Q deluxe onboard was quite pleasing...I was after all listening to music! Even though I am a classically trained musician who began playing the violin at 3 years old ...if a song comes on the radio and even and there's a bit of static and it's terrible radio sound quality int he first place I can still groove to it!

My point is that people seem to get carried away with this stuff.....I mean remember at the beginning of this thread the guy wanted something for his OFFICE computer "to get sound for whenever I might need to listen to something (product CD for business etc)".

and yet some people get on their hobby horses and start recommending sound cards because onboard sound is "terrible" because it doesn't even do "true 16-bit". I don't think he cares if his presentation is in stunning lossless 96kHz sound on a blu-ray.

I mean lots of people listen to internet radio or to 128kbps MP3s but I hardly see anyone encouraging them to listen to at least 320kbps or FLAC rips, when in my experience that really makes quite a difference as well, especially when coupled with a good sound card or DAC.

 

[ricanflow]

All i said was that a soundcard will help too, but the speakers need to be amplified.

Cant blame me for providing the facts that are true. To us guys who work with audio, its pretty much flat out cut and dry.

Yeah, i don't recommend anything under 192kbps and if higher then better but that question wasnt asked.

 

[Crysalis]

Since I'm not looking for movie/CD quality sound, just something loud enough to be practical, what should I go for? Speakers with a built in amp or a sound card?

Yes...

 

[veedubfreak]

Sorry about flaming last night, but my **** rig died for no reason and i was already annoyed, and the "chicken screaming" set me off. But as stated by guru, an on board sound card has many more things affecting it than just what its displaying like a video card would. A sound card produces sound, whether that sound is better or worse than a discrete sound card is purely subjective on the part of the listener and depends a lot on the speakers. While a video card, either can or can not handle the job being thrown at it.

 

[EricB]

It's not as cut and dry as a video card though. Framerate is pretty obvious, the perception of "good sound", on the other hand is a bit more subjective.

Also there is more equipment involved....some people have sound cards and talk about how amazing their XFI is with their crappy medusa or creative 5.1 headphones, where in reality modern onboard with a better set of cans or some decent speakerswill be better.

I'm still very noobish but have heard various setups...I've had Sennheiser HD205s for a few years and loved them. They've been driven from amped sources, a XFI, modded XFI, and onboard. They sounded best on the modded XFI and modding it is what got me recently into audio a bit more...

and now I have an external CS4397 based DAC and a little basic headphone amp along with HD 580s and the sound is wonderful....miles and miles away from my setup before.

However, the sound from even my HD 205s and P5Q deluxe onboard was quite pleasing...I was after all listening to music! Even though I am a classically trained musician who began playing the violin at 3 years old ...if a song comes on the radio and even and there's a bit of static and it's terrible radio sound quality int he first place I can still groove to it!

My point is that people seem to get carried away with this stuff.....I mean remember at the beginning of this thread the guy wanted something for his OFFICE computer "to get sound for whenever I might need to listen to something (product CD for business etc)".

and yet some people get on their hobby horses and start recommending sound cards because onboard sound is "terrible" because it doesn't even do "true 16-bit". I don't think he cares if his presentation is in stunning lossless 96kHz sound on a blu-ray.

I mean lots of people listen to internet radio or to 128kbps MP3s but I hardly see anyone encouraging them to listen to at least 320kbps or FLAC rips, when in my experience that really makes quite a difference as well, especially when coupled with a good sound card or DAC.

that's why I posted this. I over exaggerated it, but you were suppose to get the point

I can't do anything but laugh. I stop commenting on these posts.

to the original poster. get amplified speakers first. if you get any halfway decent ones, then you want to upgrade. if you can't tell the difference from a chicken screaming when it's head get cut off and a cymbal, then keep onboard

some people just don't know sound. I know people that been around sound all of their life and they don't know sound. one guy in particular tried producing and got his fellings hurt when he was told that music sucked. he couldn't set his music levels, because he don't know sound

Sorry about flaming last night, but my **** rig died for no reason and i was already annoyed, and the "chicken screaming" set me off. But as stated by guru, an on board sound card has many more things affecting it than just what its displaying like a video card would. A sound card produces sound, whether that sound is better or worse than a discrete sound card is purely subjective on the part of the listener and depends a lot on the speakers. While a video card, either can or can not handle the job being thrown at it.

comparing 2 soundcards is subjective. comparing onboard sound with a sound is never subjective because the difference is too great. I could build 2 exact same computers with the second one having a soundcard and pick 10 guys off of the street at random to test to see which card is better. all 10 would pick the sound card

why?


typical spec for onboard sound.
frequncy response - 50-150000hz
soundcard output -300-500mv
signal to noise - ratio 40-80 db
clips at 0dbfs - badly
they all exhibit some kind of noise
bits - 8-16

typical spec for cheap soundcard
frequncy response - 20-20000hz
soundcard output - 1000mv (1 volt)
signal to noise ratio - 90-95 db
clips at 0dbfs - maybe. depend on the card
bits - 16

typical spec for high end card
frequncy response - 5-100,000hz
soundcard output - 2-5 volts (2000mv-4000mv) (btw those modded x-fi don't necessary sound better. they just up the voltage to make them sound louder*. Auzentech sounds worse than the x-fi but louder. tests were ran to prove this point. I posted the links here a few time)
signal to noise ratio - 113-128 db
clips at 0dbfs - no
bit - 24

that will never be subjective. the problem you have is people. people think that they are smarter than they really are. most people think that they know everything about everything. some people like to debate. forum are debating grounds for anybody, especially people who don't have any expertise in anything. I'm not talking about you guys but we had a few sparring sessions here

http://www.techist.com/forums/f12/we-need-show-some-respect-audio-section-180626/

some people can hook onboard sound up to anything and it sound fine. so it sound like a sound card in their mind. they really believe that. they will argue that to no end. they won't put a sound card in their computer and play MUSIC and switch back and forth between the 2 sources (xp was the 1st OS that let you do this) and compare the difference. they will just continue the argument to know end. I have 10 soundcards sitting in a drawer. so you know that I've done some tests

*to most Americans louder is better. all Americans think that they know good sound. in truth only 5% do. Americans like bright and boomy sound which is distortion. Canadians and Europeans use to know good sound as they listened to flat neutral music. but since the new millennium they started picking up on Americans bad habits

 

[ricanflow]

Great post EricB, the facts are presented right there in plain English.

 

[zmatt]

Intervention time. I think the is being blown way out of proportion. I'm no audio engineer but I am a musician and a hardware nut. 90% of the time AC '97 is adequate. This isn't true for pc speakers which are almost always crap but in a situation where you have onboard sound and headphones or a stereo with amp then it should be fine. I would only recommend a dedicated sound card if. You are a huge audiophile, you do audio work (FL studio, etc) or the pc is used for media center purposes. But an office use pc doesn't need a dedicated card and it doesn't need a stereo system. Your putting money in the wrong place. An office pc's life is productivity. I don't know how 7.1 channel sound helps you with that unless you are an audio engineer.


Also what's the point in pushing a very capable sound system onto someone who may not know or need "good sound". To someone who doesn't know better that seems like a huge waste of money. I would argue not buy the technically best system, but to recommend what sounds best to the owner. After all it their money and their satisfaction is what is important. If they like distorted unbalanced sound, then they should buy what makes that. Sound is subjective therefore people should buy to what they perceive as good. That's my thoughts anyway.

 

[gurusan]

(btw those modded x-fi don't necessary sound better. they just up the voltage to make them sound louder*.

that's not true at all...the main difference between a modded XFI and a standard one is that the crappy stock cheapo opamp is replaced for something better, in my case I replaced it with a LM4562 which is pretty highly regarded everywhere...and replaced the power filter cap with a Sanyo WG 1500uF in order for cleaner power delivery.

And the results were not louder at all, it was a completely different soundstage...much tighter and more accurate bass, and brightly detailed highs.

People usually go from there to jump the decoupling caps and replace the rest of the caps on the board for higher quality low ESR caps...but I figured if I was going to do all this work I should just ditch the sound card and build my own amp and assemble my own DAC. Fancy EAX effects really didn't help me in games and I don't want any virtual spatialization or funky effects, i want to hear the music as it was recorded.

and it's paid off

 

[EricB]

that's not true at all...the main difference between a modded XFI and a standard one is that the crappy stock cheapo opamp is replaced for something better, in my case I replaced it with a LM4562 which is pretty highly regarded everywhere...and replaced the power filter cap with a Sanyo WG 1500uF in order for cleaner power delivery.

And the results were not louder at all, it was a completely different soundstage...much tighter and more accurate bass, and brightly detailed highs.

People usually go from there to jump the decoupling caps and replace the rest of the caps on the board for higher quality low ESR caps...but I figured if I was going to do all this work I should just ditch the sound card and build my own amp and assemble my own DAC. Fancy EAX effects really didn't help me in games and I don't want any virtual spatialization or funky effects, i want to hear the music as it was recorded.

and it's paid off

I don't doubt that. creative made it so you can better the card. I was just stating that
in some cases it didn't work out like that. a lot of people come here and say that the Auzentech sounds better, when it really don't.

I personally like the presonus firebox with the m-audiophile 192 a close second. too bad they don't work with media center. so I'm stuck with an x-fi. I had a digi 001 collecting dust in the closet because I know it isn't compatible with media center. the best cards aren't which is weird within itself. the OS built for media can't work with the best cards

edit.

Also what's the point in pushing a very capable sound system onto someone who may not know or need "good sound". To someone who doesn't know better that seems like a huge waste of money. I would argue not buy the technically best system, but to recommend what sounds best to the owner. After all it their money and their satisfaction is what is important. If they like distorted unbalanced sound, then they should buy what makes that. Sound is subjective therefore people should buy to what they perceive as good. That's my thoughts anyway.

there's nothing wrong with this. the problem arises when these same people try to tell you about sound when they know very little. it happen a lot here. it's the number one flame war starter