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View Poll Results: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice
Pro-Life, absolutely no abortions. 3 42.86%
Pro-Life, unless the Mother is in danger. 0 0%
Pro-Choice, but only in the first trimester. 0 0%
Pro-Choice, but only up through the second trimester. 0 0%
Pro-Choice, including partial birth 0 0%
Pro-Choice, for whatever reason, and whenever. 3 42.86%
Neither, or my answer is not included above. 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-06-2007, 05:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

Are you pro-life or pro-choice? Why?

What do you think the differences are?

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Note: This is to give us an exercise in what a discussion is, not a debate. So, answer the question(s) and vote in the poll, and let's see how we can handle a discussion.
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Old 07-06-2007, 06:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

My choice is to choose life. Ending a life is called murder, no matter when it is done. The only exceptions that I would consider is when the mother will die otherwise or the child is going to die no matter what is done.

The Supreme Court's ruling about the "life" of the mother is bull. They defined it as basically anything that you want to make it... mental, physical, financial, social, whatever. If the baby is an inconvenience then it is disposable. And that is just plain wrong.
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

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Originally Posted by Trotter View Post
My choice is to choose life. Ending a life is called murder, no matter when it is done. The only exceptions that I would consider is when the mother will die otherwise or the child is going to die no matter what is done.
Dr. C. Everett Koop, after almost 40 years in the pediatric field (starting around 1941) and more years in private practice, and many years as the Surgeon General of the U.S., stated that in 70 years of practice he did NOT know of a single case where the mother would die unless the child was aborted.

Seems like if it's been that way since 1941 and we have all the more modern medicine and pediatrics of today that there is NO physical reason to abort a baby.

I think that people want abortions today because they want to do whatever they want to do without the responsibility that may come with it. In other words, there's responsibility that comes with having sex, whether it be a life or a STD, and most want the sex without the responsibility.

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Old 09-06-2007, 02:32 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

I'm Pro-Life. Every new born deserves to live. Every new born has a potential. They should not be wasted.

It's the parent's fault, for not using protection, if they didn't want to risk having the responsibility over another life.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

I guess I'm the devil's advocate here... I'm PRO-WOMAN.

What if a woman was raped and got pregnant...
What if she needed a medical abortion? (I have had to deal with 2 cases)
I'm not saying it should be used as a form of birth control, but...


My thoughts are if she wants one, then she should have the right to CHOOSE if she gets one or not... not a bunch of 60-80 year old males on the supreme court who's morals may or may not be questionable. (ok, end of rant... let the bashing begin)

Edit: I do have to add this... I also do feel that there are enough people in the world that can't have kids, so if she chooses to have it and let it up for adoption then that would be better than the possible harm of her body, from the abortion. but still her choice.
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:02 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

I'm pro choice.
But pro-choice does not mean pro abortion! pro choice mean pro CHOICE!

I think this thread explains things well:
View topic - Explanation for "Pro-Choice" Stance? :: Atheist Network
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:36 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMo224 View Post
Note: This is to give us an exercise in what a discussion is, not a debate. So, answer the question(s) and vote in the poll, and let's see how we can handle a discussion.
In that case, why bring it to people that you trust already????

We know how we handle debates.... that's why we are mods and super mods goof ball! lol This topic doesn't violate any TF rules so if you really want to see a potential fire... then start it in the OT section with heavy mod/super-mod guard...

BTW, I am Pro-LIFE! But, in the sense of a choice in extreme situations.... So, I suppose that makes me Pro-Chife!
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

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Originally Posted by mikesgroovin View Post
In that case, why bring it to people that you trust already????

We know how we handle debates.... that's why we are mods and super mods goof ball!
Did you call me a goof ball? Where's my red cards? You would be the one to pick up on that, so you probably already know the answer to that question. I was bringing this discussion here and going to turn it into a debate. Then I would have seen how everyone, including the new Mods, handles the change since this is the Discussion forum. Or maybe that's what you were doing and I ruined the whole test. Geemyknee! I was also going to do that in the debate forum by adding some flames, so this little experiment has been squashed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukem View Post
I guess I'm the devil's advocate here... I'm PRO-WOMAN.
Why not be Pro-Man; if a man doesn't want the stigma of being a father, why should he have to be. Or maybe Pro-non-parent?

Quote:
What if a woman was raped and got pregnant...
Statistically, this happens between less than 1% and up to 4% of the rape cases (but these rape cases also include domestic violence which may be another issue). It's highly unlikely to happen. But when it does, is the child to blame? Will aborting the baby make the Mother feel better? Gee, after I was born, my Dad raped and killed 14 young women. Since he was a rapist, I surely have those genes and should be aborted so I don't do the same thing and it would make my Mother feel better. (Okay, that last part is not true, and a little radical.)

If the baby is a baby, aborting him/her will be murder no matter what...unless it's self-defense like the baby gets a gun and starts firing at the docs and nurses.

BTW, I agree that there are enough people in the U.S. to adopt probably all the unwanted children in this entire world, but the U.S. government makes it extremely hard to adopt and the cost is astronomical. We've tried and just couldn't afford it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
I've seen that argument and I think that their reasoning makes no sense other than to prove their point. Yeah, DNA proves that they are human, but not alive or dead. And they take the dictionary definition to define being, not life, to say that a being is defined as "conscious, mortal existence". The old concept was that the fetus does NOT have this consciousness during the first trimester, hence it's not a being and can be aborted without it being murder. However, new studies show that the baby now has that consciousness (especially to sound) at 42 days, umm, that may have blown the trimester theory away. Does that also mean that when I was in a coma from a car accident and didn't respond to any stimuli that my wife could have "aborted" me without any consequences?

Besides that, the definition included "mortal existence". Is the fetus immortal? That fetus is going to be a human, if it's not aborted (or some other accident or disease occur). So how can one use part of their own definition to say something is okay and not use the rest of the definition?

I think theirs is an invalid argument.

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Old 09-11-2007, 08:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMo224 View Post
I've seen that argument and I think that their reasoning makes no sense other than to prove their point. Yeah, DNA proves that they are human, but not alive or dead. And they take the dictionary definition to define being, not life, to say that a being is defined as "conscious, mortal existence". The old concept was that the fetus does NOT have this consciousness during the first trimester, hence it's not a being and can be aborted without it being murder.
The problem is that definitions are arbitrary. Including the definition of murder.
Yes, a fetus can be alive in the sense that it has cells with DNA that reproduce.
But whether it is murder to abort a child is really just a legal definition.

Quote:
However, new studies show that the baby now has that consciousness (especially to sound) at 42 days, umm, that may have blown the trimester theory away.
Are they able to have logical thoughts? IE can they make associations? (the human brain thinks by using associations)
Furthermore, are they capable of suffering?

I think sentience is what defines a person as being human. The ability to actually think.

Studies have shown that when a human baby is born, their brain is, compared to other animals, much less developed.
The only reason a human baby is born when it is, is because of the size of its head. If it got too big, then it would not be able to squeeze out.

Quote:
Does that also mean that when I was in a coma from a car accident and didn't respond to any stimuli that my wife could have "aborted" me without any consequences?
If you were already living your own life prior to being in a coma, then I'd usually say no. Unless, the chances of coming out of a coma were sufficiently low.
In some cases, it can be more moral to pull the plug.

Quote:
Besides that, the definition included "mortal existence". Is the fetus immortal? That fetus is going to be a human, if it's not aborted (or some other accident or disease occur). So how can one use part of their own definition to say something is okay and not use the rest of the definition?
I don't understand entirely what you're saying here (specifically, about the rest of the definition not being used)

Anyway, let's say a child is not aborted. That child is not guaranteed a good life. There are cases where the child may be abused by the parents etc..

and one could argue that that would be far more common with parents that did not want to have the baby.

I'll clarify one point: I am not ultimately in favour of abortions. Being pro-choice doesn't mean I want people to go out and have abortions. I just think that the choice should be there. And whether people choose to have an abortion should carefully be considered on a case by case basis.

simply put, there are circumstances where an abortion is the better option.
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

Quote:
I think sentience is what defines a person as being human. The ability to actually think.
I beg differ. A mentally retarded person is still human, even if their brain capacity is just above schnauzer. A baby, infant, or fetus is still a human being. Being able to think in rational thought patterns is something that is learned, not innate.

Quote:
Unless, the chances of coming out of a coma were sufficiently low.
In some cases, it can be more moral to pull the plug.
We've moved into euthanasia? I had a close friend, more like a brother, that we (his parents, brothers, wife, and myself) made the decision to pull the plug. He had a brain tumor that had shifted. It was inoperable, and had lodged in the brain stem. The blood to a major part of his brain was blocked, and he had suffered partial brain death. His heart was beating, but he couldn't breathe on his own. the part that had been him was gone.

Making that decision was hard, very hard. his wife and mother couldn't bear to be there. his dad (I call him mine as well), along with his two brothers and myself stood with him, held him, while he died. He was 32. His death was not easy, but he had lived life already. He left two small children behind, as well as a beautiful wife.

What does that have to do with the current discussion? Everything. By ending the life of a child before it is born, no matter how early in the pregnancy, you destroy that chance of life. Every child deserves that chance.

Calling the baby a fetus, or a lump of tissue, or trying to pare it down to its chemical components does not change the fact that this is a life, a life that one day will walk and talk and think and live... if it is not killed.
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