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Old 08-29-2005, 07:13 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Liquid Cooling to be done by someone else...

Ok, I have a nice rig. BUT I want to liquid cool it. I have looked around, and I am running some experiments on another machine I have.

I want to liquid cool the one in my Sig, but I have decided that for what I have paid into it I want someone else to do the work. I have emailed several websites and so far have gotten no results or even interests in doing this for me. I think it is because it is not one of their machines. Anyways, Does anyone have any advice out there. The machine is running like a dream and the temps are steady, but I want them lower. Not for overslocking, just to increase reliability should I move it to a warmer environment.

I feel I need to liquid cool at least the CPU and both GPU's. If I can find a reputable site, I want their opinions, even if it is based by them on what kind of money they can get out of me, if I should cool the chipset and the Raptor as well. If there is a capability to cool the ram reliably then even that is an option for me. I am not really worried about fan noise, but my experiments are going to take a while longer than originaly anticipated because I am waiting on some parts to arrive that are, in my opinion, vital to my tests.

I have come up with a wind tunnel creation that seems to be wicked at removing heat from a series of heat pipes and the noise is rather low because all the output from the fan is used to cool them. My heat lane should be here in about 3 weeks, talk about delays, and the flexability of this piece of cooling gear makes a whole new list of options open for the table.

Well, tell me what you think please. Thanks.
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Old 08-29-2005, 07:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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no way I'd want someone else setting up my liquid cooling unless they were right there with it and setting it up infront of my eyes.

RAM cooling = a fan blowing on them
Chipset cooling = not needed to be liquid cooled
Raptors = don't bother liquid cooling....

you just need to liquid cool the CPU and GPU any other additions to the loop will decrease it's flow rate and ultimately it's performance on the other parts
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Old 08-29-2005, 07:25 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hey Nubius, been a while since I have chatted with you. How you been?

As far as trusting, this is why I am asking around. Even then I wont feel 100% comfortable until I get it back. I know that even if I sent it to someone to do the work, who says the shipping back would not loosen up something. I have thought of these things.

This is the reason I have been doing a lot of searching, and so far no one does it. I have thought of taking it to someone in the nearby vacinity, but don't really want some back yard enthusiast doing the work. I would rather get to know someone who can show results, keep in touch with progress, and show me what they intend to use.

The chipset and Raptor were just in case things. I built this rig to be a monster and I do not want the simplest of things, HEAT, to be the Slayer.

I have built lots of computers, but nothing that produced this kind of heat. With both cards running, and the CPU at a jog, the temps are conerning to me.

Maybe part of the reason I really want someone else to do the work also is a lot of the GPU cooling blocks do not cool the ram chips. I think if I put liquid onto the GPU's I want their ram cooled this way also. I have only seen a couple of blocks that do this. I believe you referred me to one yourself.

Feedback??
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Old 08-29-2005, 07:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
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If you leak test for 24 hours, and use the right coolant (90% distilled water and 10% zerex) you have nothing to worry about. I had my loop leak a few months ago and all of my parts still work exactly the same.

Also, you generally wanna change the coolant every 6 months and you want to inspect the loop every so often and may need to make changes and if you can't assemble it yourself, you'll have to keep taking it back to wherever you got it assembled.

VRAM gets no hotter than system RAM and ramsinks are more than sufficent
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Old 08-29-2005, 07:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Question Alright, you win

I will begin to get the stuff for the CPU and the GPU's. Keep an eye out here as if I run into problems I WILL ask.

Gaara, sorry I placed the thread over there, thought that the system itself would make it a reason to be there. Thank you for the correction. It was you that moved it wasn't it?

Ok, Now the advice part.

1. CPU Block
2. GPU Blocks
3. Pump
4. Reservoir
5. Radiator
6. Temp monitor, and locations (exactly) where I should place sensors. (ie. Where would be the best place to obtain true temps?)

Can you palce a sensor between the CPU die and the water block? I know the sensor is really thin, BUT?

I have heard of just placing the sensors on the side of the blocks also.
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Old 08-29-2005, 08:38 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Like gaara said...just get some RAMsinks for the VGA ram...those are more than enough and even then you don't really get any substantial gains from having no ramsinks to adding ramsinks...I've got Tweakmonster BGA ramsinks cause they look perty

CPU Block - DangerDen TDX
GPU Block - MAZE4GPU Block
Pump - DangerDen D5
Reservoir - Save space and get a T-Line
Radiator - Either go to Xtremesystems.org and get one of "weapons" modded 2-308 heatercores that come with a nice shroud for approximately $75 or you could mod your own:

2-308 heatercore can be generally found at most auto parts store.

http://www.ocmodshop.com/default.aspx?a=228

There's a 'how to' on how to do it...I modded my own works great. a 2-308 Chevette heatercore is the exact model name I believe....perhaps gaara would know off hand, my minds drawing a blank, believe it's the 1978 chevette 2-308 heatercore to be exact.

Temp sensor won't fit between CPU die and block dude...theres like 35lbs+ of pressure on these things...the AMD64's can take up to like 80lbs of pressure I believe so basically what I'm saying is the block is on there really tight....GPU sensors are generally pretty accurate....for the CPU the best you'd be able to get is to place it on the side of the IHS.
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Old 08-29-2005, 10:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Question Heat Core

I have read several articles on these. Everything from doin them, to the results. Most seem to sit under the Comp and I seem to have seen some holes cut into the bottom to allow the hoses to pass. I would rather not cut holes unless I can somehow attach the heat core to the base of my case.

An interesting thing about my case is the vent at the top. What about a slight mod making a top attachment where the heat core would sit, say, maybe 2 fans (120mm) pushing the airflow. This would also assit in removing heat from the case.

Would this cause a slightly less efficient cooling as the hot air from the case would be blowing over the heat core? OR would it be minimal as the biggest heat sources would be moving their heat to that point any way?

Metal shop from back in school may come in handy. Can you tell me the measurements on your heat core, from side to side, back to front, and the thinckness so I can get an idea. Also, how much weight did yours add, OR is yours stand alone beside your rig?

Also, what percentage, if you know, difference in the temps did you see?
what was the old temp and the new one? estimates?
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Wait until the new Zalman CNPS9500. It's been reviewed and benchmarked and is right on par with liquid cooling solutions.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/oth...-cnps9500.html
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Info on weapons heatercores, (btw I was mistaken, it's 2-302 not 2-308, my mistake)

Weapon 2-302 core
Overall Dimensions: ~12-3/8" x 5-5/8 x 2" with the tanks
Core Dimensions: ~10-3/4" x 5-5/8" x 2"
Dimensions with shroud & 38mm thick 120mm fans: ~12-3/8" (L)x 6” (w)(at the shroud mounting lip) x 5-3/8”(d)
Dimensions are approximate as there is slight variation in core sizes.
--Cleaned internally and externally
--Factory solder seams checked and tested
--Factory Fittings replaced with brass barbs [3/8”, ½” or 5/8” OD fittings] which are silver soldered in place. Silver soldering the fittings makes them basically non-removable (without a good deal of effort and a torch) but it also makes them 100% leak free. The solder that is used on the fittings is rated for 15,000 PSI on joints which is extreme overkill but it makes certain that they will not leak.
Note on fittings: If you are using Tygon or Clearflex, you can stretch the tubing over the next largest size barb with a little effort after wetting the inside of the tube and the outside of the fitting. This normally produces a little better flow through the core as the fitting will not be as restrictive. A ½” OD barbed fitting has an internal channel that is approximately 3/8” so it matches up with the ID of 3/8” tubing. On the other hand, it presents a restriction point if used with ½” ID tubing. A 5/8” OD barb has a ½” ID channel and works very well with ½” ID Clearflex or Tygon. My main system uses ½” ID tubing with 5/8” barbs on the core and it works very well. The 5/8” fittings are flow cannons.

--Stealth Black paint finish on the core – if desired, the fins can be left entirely unpainted or they can be lightly dusted with just enough color to make them appear painted. Dusting the fins just colors the edges of the fins with paint and so far as I can tell from testing has no adverse effect on cooling performance.

Weapon Shroud
--18 gauge steel
--CNC cut and bent
--Optimized fan cutouts for max flow with fans mounted in either push or pull configuration.
--Seam welded corners
--Welded in divider plate that makes the shroud dual chamber
--Mounting lip with 4 holes predrilled for 4-40 threaded rods
--Stealth Black powder coat finish
--Approximately 42mm of standoff between the face of the core and the fins
--Mounting hardware is not included at this time with shroud orders (sorry, still trying to work out a deal to supply the mounting hardware.)
Picture of usual mounting: http://www.cox-internet.com/weapon/...2MountSide3.jpg
Note that clear acrylic was used to represent the case wall.


Required Mounting Hardware:
-- Four 4-40 threaded rods with two 4-40 nuts for each of the threaded rods. The length of the rods required depends on the number of shrouds on the core. With a single shroud, 3” rods will work, if there is a shroud on both sides of the core, 6” threaded rods are required.

--Fan mounting – 6-32 machine screws with nuts and washers. 1.75” machine screws will run through a fan grill, a 38mm thick fan and the shroud with some extra length to spare. A nut and washer are then added to the underside of the shroud to lock them in place.

Core and shroud images:
--Stealth Black Core and Shroud:

--Fan cutouts for maximum airflow from any 120mm fan:
http://www.cox-internet.com/weapon/...uncutout2.1.jpg
Note that in the above image, the divider plate that splits the shroud into dual chambers was not installed.
--Custom Finished Blue Metallic Core and Shroud (custom finishes are +$10 over stealth black pricing – which covers the paint and the extra time involved):
http://www.cox-internet.com/weapon/...dcoreblumet.jpg
--Stealth Black shroud:
http://www.cox-internet.com/weapon/....1shrdfinal.jpg

302 Pricing:
Cores
--Weapon 302 Core (unpainted) fittings changed to brass barbs, cleaned and tested - $35 + S&H
--Weapon 302 Core, fittings modded, cleaned inside and out, metal prepped for paint, stealth black finish - $45 + S&H

302 Shrouds
--Weapon 302 shroud (stealth black)(does not include mounting hardware) - $28 + S&H

302 Core/Shroud combos
--Weapon 302 Core (unpainted), fittings changed to brass barbs, cleaned and tested w/ shroud (stealth black) and mounting hardware: $65.50 + S&H.
--Weapon 302 Core (stealth black) w/ shroud (stealth black) including all mounting hardware (for fans and shroud) - $75 + S&H
--Weapon 302 Core w/shroud, two San Ace 120mm fans (103cfm each), wire fan grills and all mounting hardware, assembled and tested = $91.00 + S&H. San Ace SOLD OUT again.)
--Weapon 302 Core w/shroud, two Delta VHE 120mm fans (129cfm each), wire fan grills and all mounting hardware, assembled and tested = $84.00 + S&H. (subject to fan availability - currently in stock)

Mounting Hardware
Four 4-40 threaded rods + nuts and washers for mounting the shroud $2.50 + S&H
Eight 1.75” 6-32 machine screws with washers and nuts for mounting fans to the shroud $1.50 + S&H

Fans (subject to availability)
San Ace 120mm x 38mm, 3 pin connectors, tested and lightly modded for improved performance – SOLD OUT.
Delta VHE 120 x38mm, 129cfm, 3 pin connectors, $4.50 each + S&H

Payment methods:
I accept payment via Paypal or money order.

Note on mounting hardware - we originally intended to include the mounting hardware with the shrouds but we realized that different mounting locations could require different hardware and it would be difficult to include all of the possible combinations of hardware at a reasonable price. Additionally, the mounting hardware is readily available and some might have the hardware already on hand so including the hardware would have unnecessarily increased the cost of the shroud. As such, we can provide mounting hardware with the shrouds at our cost but it is not included with the shrouds

It has dimensions in there including links.

My heatercore is on top of my case with two fans sucking air out from the case...now normally I'd rather have the fans on the bottom sucking air through the heatercore into the case, but the way everything is set up simply wouldn't allow it...it'd be much better to have the cooler air being pulled through the heatercore obviously than air inside the computer case, however I've got so much air going through there anyway it really doesn't have time to heat up.

Theres no way in hell I could possibly tell you the weight added dude...all I know is my case is a steel full tower and the damn thing weighs 60lbs+ but it already was heavy to begin with muchless adding water to it.

GPU went from 80-85C full load down to 50C full load and approx 45C idle compared to 70C idle before hand...the GPU is where you really notice the temp differences.

On my XP-M I noticed a 10C+ drop in temperatures but when I had it set up it was also the hottest months of the summer, still 10C+ colder in the midst of a burning summer isn't too bad especially considering it's a lot quieter compared to running my 80mm tornado at full blast.

My mobo right now has a horrible temp sensor so I can't tell you the temp of my current CPU.
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Old 08-30-2005, 08:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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That's fine. I like the numbers already. I think I will mount mine on top and move my rails to the top of the add on. I am probably going to have to make a custom shroud as the case I am using places the power, reset and a couple of slots in the front on top.

I will just have to ensure that the case does not get too top heavy.

How long did it take you to set it all up, and how many liquid systems have you dealt with? I am not looking for something to just throw in, but then again I do not exactly want a massive jigsaw puzzle. Once I get everything, should I set the BIOS settings lower to keep the system from overheating?

Also, every link failed to connect. Any idea why? Are the links current?
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