Windows 7 Milestone 3 Build 6801 Review
- Thread starter KSoD
- Start date
- Status
CalcProgrammer1
Fully Optimized
- Messages
- 2,363
- Location
- Illinois, USA
It has a new Media Center (slightly different from Vista's, and it is actually compatible with my 360! the Vista one just gave errors before connecting to the 360 and I never got it working). My HP TV tuner works fine with it too, but my remote only seems to work after opening Media Center (can't open MCE using the button on my remote).
I realize that the driver system has been changed quite a bit since XP, but that isn't a good enough reason. Fact is, they could have built Vista's features into XP's kernel and still had all the driver support. Instead, they rewrote everything. For all those clinging to XP, this is but one more reason not to switch. Microsoft can write it off as unimportant all they want, but that doesn't mean consumers will switch, they will stick with whatever works, and for now, XP works. Using XP in a VM is a pain (VM's are a pain), dual booting is better, but it is still not perfect. Either way, people are going to be somehow using the old XP code. If it is possible to utilize these drivers through XP running on Windows 7/Vista in a VM, then why can't Microsoft make an emulated/backwards compatible driver layer that runs separately, uses "fake" Windows Vista/7 drivers that feed data back and forth between another program that runs XP drivers in compatibility mode. Also, the 64 bit "driver lock" that came along with SP1 NEEDS TO BE REMOVED. This is a capitalistic money grabbing stale move on Microsoft's part, covered up by some lame virus story. Tons of non-virus, very useful applications rely on unsigned drivers (ahem, ATITOOL!, rivatuner, programs that use their own input drivers, etc) and Microsoft is too stubborn to let these not-for-profit programs run unless they pay up the big money for a stupid license.
Also, the built in DRM nonsense needs to be done away with. This isn't the RIAA's computer, it's mine. I don't want their garbage on it. It's obvious that Microsoft must have taken some bribe by the media morons to include nonsense "protection", and when you have a protected media program that eats up 10+ % of your CPU while playing UNPROTECTED MEDIA (this was with Vista, but probably in 7 too) you know you've gone too far.
XP lets you do what you need it to do, it doesn't look as good, it doesn't have the fancy features, but it isn't locked down and monitoring your every move either. If Microsoft wants to make 7 run like XP, they need to get rid of some of the locks (the nonsensical driver lock, needless DRM background tasks, etc).
I realize that the driver system has been changed quite a bit since XP, but that isn't a good enough reason. Fact is, they could have built Vista's features into XP's kernel and still had all the driver support. Instead, they rewrote everything. For all those clinging to XP, this is but one more reason not to switch. Microsoft can write it off as unimportant all they want, but that doesn't mean consumers will switch, they will stick with whatever works, and for now, XP works. Using XP in a VM is a pain (VM's are a pain), dual booting is better, but it is still not perfect. Either way, people are going to be somehow using the old XP code. If it is possible to utilize these drivers through XP running on Windows 7/Vista in a VM, then why can't Microsoft make an emulated/backwards compatible driver layer that runs separately, uses "fake" Windows Vista/7 drivers that feed data back and forth between another program that runs XP drivers in compatibility mode. Also, the 64 bit "driver lock" that came along with SP1 NEEDS TO BE REMOVED. This is a capitalistic money grabbing stale move on Microsoft's part, covered up by some lame virus story. Tons of non-virus, very useful applications rely on unsigned drivers (ahem, ATITOOL!, rivatuner, programs that use their own input drivers, etc) and Microsoft is too stubborn to let these not-for-profit programs run unless they pay up the big money for a stupid license.
Also, the built in DRM nonsense needs to be done away with. This isn't the RIAA's computer, it's mine. I don't want their garbage on it. It's obvious that Microsoft must have taken some bribe by the media morons to include nonsense "protection", and when you have a protected media program that eats up 10+ % of your CPU while playing UNPROTECTED MEDIA (this was with Vista, but probably in 7 too) you know you've gone too far.
XP lets you do what you need it to do, it doesn't look as good, it doesn't have the fancy features, but it isn't locked down and monitoring your every move either. If Microsoft wants to make 7 run like XP, they need to get rid of some of the locks (the nonsensical driver lock, needless DRM background tasks, etc).
No they couldnt use XP's Kernel for this. Codename Longhorn was based off of XP's Kernel and it was failing miserably. Which is why they scrapped it and went with the Vista code.
Sorry mate that info is incorrect. If they could have done it they would have. But XP's Kernel could not handle all the changes. Longhorn was more unstable than even the early builds of Vista and XP combined.
If you have a problem with Vista that is your choice. I have never had a issue with DRM or playing DRM content. I still do it to this day. Just watched a DRM content video just earlier.
People need to stop bashing the stuff when it is Pre-Beta. There is a ton of work and still a year left of work to be done. It is not like Win7 is going to be released tomorrow!
It was over a month ago and they still havent even released a new build of Win7 to us testers. But yet they are at least 20 builds higher in office.
The information recieved at this point is very little. Until a new build is released, which will be the first official Beta more than likely, we can not gague how well Win7 will turn out. Cause right now the code is still that of Vista's. Which i have stated several times between this thread and the Win7 Info Thread in the Windows area.
The Kernel had to be changed to allow for the changes to the GUI, Network stack and the Security. The XP Kernel could not handle all of it. It would have been even more bloated than the Vista kernel is now.
Sorry mate that info is incorrect. If they could have done it they would have. But XP's Kernel could not handle all the changes. Longhorn was more unstable than even the early builds of Vista and XP combined.
If you have a problem with Vista that is your choice. I have never had a issue with DRM or playing DRM content. I still do it to this day. Just watched a DRM content video just earlier.
People need to stop bashing the stuff when it is Pre-Beta. There is a ton of work and still a year left of work to be done. It is not like Win7 is going to be released tomorrow!
It was over a month ago and they still havent even released a new build of Win7 to us testers. But yet they are at least 20 builds higher in office.
The information recieved at this point is very little. Until a new build is released, which will be the first official Beta more than likely, we can not gague how well Win7 will turn out. Cause right now the code is still that of Vista's. Which i have stated several times between this thread and the Win7 Info Thread in the Windows area.
The Kernel had to be changed to allow for the changes to the GUI, Network stack and the Security. The XP Kernel could not handle all of it. It would have been even more bloated than the Vista kernel is now.
CalcProgrammer1
Fully Optimized
- Messages
- 2,363
- Location
- Illinois, USA
I'm not hating Windows 7 in particular, these problems are all present in Vista as well. I suppose we have to live with them, but with incompatibilities and such, nothing based on Windows Vista will be perfect. This is one reason that I really like Linux. You can pop the current Linux kernel onto a brand new machine and connect to the Internet via the built in Ethernet card, get full color video with a good resolution, connect USB devices, hear sound, and have a usable experience without even having to install extra software (except maybe for WiFi or video, but with Ubuntu these are pretty easy to get working). On the other hand, I can take the latest Linux kernel and pop it onto an old 1990's machine with an old, dust covered PCI Ethernet board, ISA dial up modem, and some no-name video chip and get a connection, connect devices, hear sounds, and have full color video with whatever resolution the thing can support.
Windows you are stuck with almost nothing on slightly older machines. My Sempron machine has 2 PCI Ethernet boards (not really even old ones, just got them a few years ago) that are completely useless in Vista/7. ETHERNET BOARDS!!! Linux supports pretty much every single one out there, even really obscure no-name ones (mine are Netgear, a common name in computer stores). Why Vista doesn't support it I have no clue, XP recognized it without even having to download drivers from Netgear's site. Meanwhile, on my older laptop, I get no sound, no graphics acceleration, no nothing, only basic video and my external network device are supported. I find this unacceptable for Vista.
I have really mixed opinions on Microsoft's modern OS'es. When run on a new PC, they are excellent, when run on anything less, they are terrible. This means that anyone who wants to keep their older laptop around for a spare PC or to take on trips where they may not want to take their expensive computer are stuck with XP or Linux. Although I don't have one, this may also be a problem for Netbook users, as netbooks often have similar specs to my old laptop.
For comparison, Ubuntu 8.10 is running on my ThinkPad (850MHz P3 512MB RAM). It has full 1600x1200 resolution support, OpenGL acceleration, clear stereo sound, supported USB, WiFi and Ethernet, even my keyboard volume buttons are detected again. Vista doesn't get sound, acceleration, nothing. Unusable. XP works fine on it though.
Guess I have to stick with XP on my laptop, may switch my Sempron back to XP so I can use my TV tuner (other than the unsupported cards I have in it, Windows 7 runs fine on it, so the card failure is really annoying me, and Vista doesn't fix it because same problem happens in Vista).
Windows you are stuck with almost nothing on slightly older machines. My Sempron machine has 2 PCI Ethernet boards (not really even old ones, just got them a few years ago) that are completely useless in Vista/7. ETHERNET BOARDS!!! Linux supports pretty much every single one out there, even really obscure no-name ones (mine are Netgear, a common name in computer stores). Why Vista doesn't support it I have no clue, XP recognized it without even having to download drivers from Netgear's site. Meanwhile, on my older laptop, I get no sound, no graphics acceleration, no nothing, only basic video and my external network device are supported. I find this unacceptable for Vista.
I have really mixed opinions on Microsoft's modern OS'es. When run on a new PC, they are excellent, when run on anything less, they are terrible. This means that anyone who wants to keep their older laptop around for a spare PC or to take on trips where they may not want to take their expensive computer are stuck with XP or Linux. Although I don't have one, this may also be a problem for Netbook users, as netbooks often have similar specs to my old laptop.
For comparison, Ubuntu 8.10 is running on my ThinkPad (850MHz P3 512MB RAM). It has full 1600x1200 resolution support, OpenGL acceleration, clear stereo sound, supported USB, WiFi and Ethernet, even my keyboard volume buttons are detected again. Vista doesn't get sound, acceleration, nothing. Unusable. XP works fine on it though.
Guess I have to stick with XP on my laptop, may switch my Sempron back to XP so I can use my TV tuner (other than the unsupported cards I have in it, Windows 7 runs fine on it, so the card failure is really annoying me, and Vista doesn't fix it because same problem happens in Vista).
Puddle Jumper
Mod Emeritus
- Messages
- 4,292
Netbooks may have similar performance but the specs are very different. The majority of them use the Atom processor which is 45nm and hasn't been out that long. Also Windows 7 is supposed to be very well suited to netbooks, as good if not better than xp is now. If the current info about windows 7's performance on netbooks is accurate I may install it on my MSI wind when it is released.
I dont get the older hardware stuff. I have Vista running on a P4 with 3GB of RAM. I also have Vista on a Celeron 1.6GHz with 1GB of RAM and it runs fine. I have Vista on yet another Intel Pentium 4 1.3GHz with 768MB of RAM and still no issues on that. Yeah it is a tad slower on that machine than mine. But it works just fine.
Yeah you cant run it on your thinkpad. Cause it doesnt even meet the requirements. Yeah Vista isnt made for hardware that is over 8-10 years old. What else is new? So linux is. Congrats.
You are comparing things that have no right to be compared. The Linux Kernel is no where near the size of the Windows Kernel. It also isnt as highly supported as Windows is either. You can talk all you want that Ubuntu is supported more yet i can show you several topic by Jayce that say otherwise for Sound support let alone WiFi support. Yeah it has gotten better recently but it is still not as broad as Windows.
Sorry mate but you are taking your frustrations out the wrong way. Comparing Linux to Windows is like saying the XBOX and the PS2 are the same. It just isnt right. Linux is known to work on older hardware. It has been known since Vista was released and since they let the hardware requirements out for it that older hardware would have issues for it.
Yet again here we are having someone blame Microsoft for these manufacturer's who refuse to write the drivers. Microsoft isnt responsible for the drivers. That is the manufacturers. They are the ones you should yell at cause your old hardware doesnt have drivers for Vista.
Sorry mate but you are just going off about stuff that is either already known by the requirements set forth or not in control of Microsoft.
It is already shown that Win7 will be better. They have it running on a EEEPC. Vista cant do that yet Win7 already can.
If you want your TV Tuner card supported. Contact the manufacturer. That is beyond Microsoft. Dont mean to go off on a tanget like this but every other day people are blaming Microsoft for stuff that is not in their control. Drivers is not their responsiblity. Yeah the hardware requirements are. But as i already said Win7 is a major improvement.
But yet the driver support is based off of Vista. So you better get emailing the manufacturer's to do something now.
Yeah you cant run it on your thinkpad. Cause it doesnt even meet the requirements. Yeah Vista isnt made for hardware that is over 8-10 years old. What else is new? So linux is. Congrats.
You are comparing things that have no right to be compared. The Linux Kernel is no where near the size of the Windows Kernel. It also isnt as highly supported as Windows is either. You can talk all you want that Ubuntu is supported more yet i can show you several topic by Jayce that say otherwise for Sound support let alone WiFi support. Yeah it has gotten better recently but it is still not as broad as Windows.
Sorry mate but you are taking your frustrations out the wrong way. Comparing Linux to Windows is like saying the XBOX and the PS2 are the same. It just isnt right. Linux is known to work on older hardware. It has been known since Vista was released and since they let the hardware requirements out for it that older hardware would have issues for it.
Yet again here we are having someone blame Microsoft for these manufacturer's who refuse to write the drivers. Microsoft isnt responsible for the drivers. That is the manufacturers. They are the ones you should yell at cause your old hardware doesnt have drivers for Vista.
Sorry mate but you are just going off about stuff that is either already known by the requirements set forth or not in control of Microsoft.
It is already shown that Win7 will be better. They have it running on a EEEPC. Vista cant do that yet Win7 already can.
If you want your TV Tuner card supported. Contact the manufacturer. That is beyond Microsoft. Dont mean to go off on a tanget like this but every other day people are blaming Microsoft for stuff that is not in their control. Drivers is not their responsiblity. Yeah the hardware requirements are. But as i already said Win7 is a major improvement.
But yet the driver support is based off of Vista. So you better get emailing the manufacturer's to do something now.
CalcProgrammer1
Fully Optimized
- Messages
- 2,363
- Location
- Illinois, USA
Well, looking at it the other way, it is the manufacturer's fault when their devices fail on Linux, so I see how it isn't Microsoft's fault there. The point I was trying to prove was that Linux has used the same binary drivers for years and years, they don't keep changing their driver model like Windows does. I will try contacting ATi and Netgear about the cards, though I doubt they'll do anything. I do think it is quite ridiculous for them to release products and then not support them after only a single OS version (I have stuff that worked fine in 95, 98, ME, 2K, and XP, but Vista no longer supports it because the idiot manufacturers now claim it is outdated...yeah right. I don't even know who made the audio chip in my ThinkPad, they probably don't even exist anymore. If anything, they could at least open source their drivers since obviously they won't be updating them themselves anymore, at least that way the community could port them to newer OS'es.
Well that is one advantage of being with Linux. They dont change the Kernel much. If they do the stuff that is changed is adapted quickly for a work around. Not to mention there is how many people that can help get things workign for it.
While on the flip side Microsoft is closed source and has less than 100,000 people working on it. So for them to have to create support for all the old stuff and new would be a daunting task.
I wont say that the Vista stuff is not totally extreme how they went with a new requirements for the drivers and everything. Cause in truth they probably could have stull used some of the old XP ways to keep the hardware workign in Vista.
I know drivers is always a big thing. It is even worse for 64 Bit. But all we can do is hamper on teh manufacturer;s to try and do something. Maybe if there is a big enough request. I still remember the beta cycle of Vista where just about the whole community as a large send a request to Creative to release some drivers.
They finally listened but was only for 1 build. Go figure...
Sorry for going at it like that. I shouldnt have had at you like that. My apologies for my last response. It was kinda out of line.
While on the flip side Microsoft is closed source and has less than 100,000 people working on it. So for them to have to create support for all the old stuff and new would be a daunting task.
I wont say that the Vista stuff is not totally extreme how they went with a new requirements for the drivers and everything. Cause in truth they probably could have stull used some of the old XP ways to keep the hardware workign in Vista.
I know drivers is always a big thing. It is even worse for 64 Bit. But all we can do is hamper on teh manufacturer;s to try and do something. Maybe if there is a big enough request. I still remember the beta cycle of Vista where just about the whole community as a large send a request to Creative to release some drivers.
They finally listened but was only for 1 build. Go figure...
Sorry for going at it like that. I shouldnt have had at you like that. My apologies for my last response. It was kinda out of line.
CalcProgrammer1
Fully Optimized
- Messages
- 2,363
- Location
- Illinois, USA
It's OK, hopefully you actually did good. I just got done e-mailing both ATi and Netgear informing them that my products don't work on Vista 64 (should be the same drivers for Windows 7 64) and that I wanted to know if they were going to port them.
I also said that I relied on the Netgear card to get on the Internet and that I would go back to XP if I couldn't get drivers (well, OK, motherboard does have integrated, but I would like these cards working
, 2 years ago I decided to go on an eBay spree and bought 5 of the things for cheap, so I'd be out of 5 cards not just 1). Apparently they're based on a single-chip PCI to Ethernet controller (DP83815 National Semiconductor MacPhyter), at least that's what Linux sees it as (oddly enough, Netgear's explicitly states that this card will NOT work on Linux, yet it works fine on Linux, though the page hasn't been updated in forever so at the time it probably didn't). I tried looking for other cards that use this chip (a lot do) but none seem to have Vista 64 (or XP 64) drivers. Some people say that you can get XP 32 drivers working on Vista 32 for certain devices, so maybe the bigger issue is the 32-64 bit jump. I should probably send off an email to National Semiconductor, if their chip doesn't work on Vista 64, they may be the only ones capable of porting (their store looked like they were still selling the chip).
I also said that I relied on the Netgear card to get on the Internet and that I would go back to XP if I couldn't get drivers (well, OK, motherboard does have integrated, but I would like these cards working
, 2 years ago I decided to go on an eBay spree and bought 5 of the things for cheap, so I'd be out of 5 cards not just 1). Apparently they're based on a single-chip PCI to Ethernet controller (DP83815 National Semiconductor MacPhyter), at least that's what Linux sees it as (oddly enough, Netgear's explicitly states that this card will NOT work on Linux, yet it works fine on Linux, though the page hasn't been updated in forever so at the time it probably didn't). I tried looking for other cards that use this chip (a lot do) but none seem to have Vista 64 (or XP 64) drivers. Some people say that you can get XP 32 drivers working on Vista 32 for certain devices, so maybe the bigger issue is the 32-64 bit jump. I should probably send off an email to National Semiconductor, if their chip doesn't work on Vista 64, they may be the only ones capable of porting (their store looked like they were still selling the chip).There are places online to setup online petitions. I am sure that many people on this forum alone would sign it. Maybe presenting something like that could also help in the cause to get some hardware drivers for products.
I can understand, kinda, where the hardware manufacturer's are coming from. They want people to buy new stuff so that they continue to make money. But their excuse is ill thought out. I mean if they say they dont have the man power right now to supply to writing drivers for X OS would be better off than saying it is outdated and not supported.
I do wish you luck on your endeavor. I would be willing to help and sign my name to any email or complaint as well. I may not use them but some help from a Desktop MVP might go a long way.
I can understand, kinda, where the hardware manufacturer's are coming from. They want people to buy new stuff so that they continue to make money. But their excuse is ill thought out. I mean if they say they dont have the man power right now to supply to writing drivers for X OS would be better off than saying it is outdated and not supported.
I do wish you luck on your endeavor. I would be willing to help and sign my name to any email or complaint as well. I may not use them but some help from a Desktop MVP might go a long way.
- Status
Similar threads
